Aerator and bottom heater?

[callingcolleen1]

Looked at the article again this morning, I do like this guy and enjoy reading his article, and I did find your alias" Spy Walter' He does not however sound confident about your situation, and does tell you to be careful. Rightfully so, as you are even further north than most, and have colder, longer winters.

I do believe that goldfish and Koi are meant to winter below the ice, and if the conditions are right they will be fine. I do find that the fish in my pond just fine, even in the bottom pond that gets the most ice, in January the ice can be 10 or more inches thick and I can walk over it, even with the heater in the middle pond. My bottom pond however does not have large fish or koi, just the smaller goldfish, up to about five inches long, and the bottom pond aways has a small hole open in the water way, even when it is minus 40 or more. Maybe this spring I will re dig the top pond and make it even bigger. The last decade I have been slowing making each pond deeper and bigger and I find I have much less trouble now with a larger voloume of water.

Your pond has the very nice island, but the water around it may be very shallow, creating a large "dead zone", so that may be problematic. Here in Canada, unheated ponds can have two feet of ice, so that can be a large problem. My 1500 watt heater is not used a whole lot, I unplug it when not needed so it does not draw any power. My utitility bill for my house is very low, very rarely over 300 dollars a month, with everything, power, water, garbage, etc. My house is small, so it is cheap to heat. I don't think I pay too much for the 1500 watt heater because here in town we get lots of very warm Chinook winds, and that really makes a big difference.

 

[crsublette]

Yeah, the length of winter only dictates the thickness of ice thus dictating the frost line.

I don't know what the frost line would be up there where you are Wayne, but it sounds like it could be as much as 3~5 feet deep or even deeper, which could be a big problem if you're pond is only 3~5 feet deep and you had zero water flow nor any heater use of any kind.

Charles, the boiling water in a pot method to melt ice, I can answer that for you already. IT SUCKS lol. To go through only 1/2 - 3/4 inch of uneven clear ice, took 3 pots of boiling water and 3 kettle fills at 20F outside temp and 45 minutes. -20F and many inches of ice, you would need almost a constant replenishment of hot water and a team effort and half the day. A pot with a handle would interfere with that and also uneven ice etc.

I was wondering. I never tried it. It's what I've heard.

Have you tried super heated block of steel in the shape of a circle like a cattle branding iron with a vertical handle so the handle does not interfere?? Figure something like this wouldn't take long to heat up in a fireplace since I seen it done all the when branding cattle.; heh, it'd be an interesting experiment.

This guy sticking to his story.

Yeah, they always do since they, as well as most ponders, truly do take the statement to heart that he wrote stating, or some sort of variant of it saying, "what is important, is for you to use what has worked for you in the past" and then it is precede or followed by a "us vs. them" rant similar to some sort of class warfare amongst the "intellectuals" between the "haves and have nots"... blah blah blah. It is extremely irritating when educated folk fall into this trap. I read it all the time and it is extremely unfortunate since none of the rant helps the reader other than sharing to the reader how the author personally feels, which seems to be important to note as well such as I am here and everyone else notes it as well in their testimonials.

 

[waynefrcan]

Ok one last thing that I was told is that with the aeration method, even if it ices over, gas exchange will still happen. It's because the domed area is clear thin ice and gas will penetrate through it. Any thoughts on this?

Any thoughts on this??

 

[waynefrcan]

The island is 2' deep all around. Only shallow area is 6"-1" ledge all around pond.

 

[callingcolleen1]

The dome may not be so thin when you have long periods of extreme cold, like a week of minus 30 or more, and then with the snow on top.... could be interesting! Please Keep heater handy, you may need it. I also don't like the idea of not seeing the fish for so long, and remember, fish will be fine under the ice in large lakes, but we don't have large lakes. The shallow areas of your pond will freeze solid (two feet deep) without a heater, so only the deepest parts will be "liveable", and that is providing the fish are not packed in to tight. Maybe the gas may still exchange with a thin dome, but a thick dome might be a different story.

 

[waynefrcan]

Colleen dear, I know you have seen my winter pics. You will see 2 aeration spots, one behind the island. This will take care of the dead zone. And ice doesn't freeze to the bottom. Many ponders have posted at this forum and agree the most ice is 15" thick even dead cold mid winter. The bottom heater at deep end will keep that clear and aeration will keep surface area clear.

I still might get another surface heater. Should I go 750 watt or 1500. Last winter I put in a 1500 W and it kept a huge area open. I just want to keep small hole open. Will a 750W do it?

 

[crsublette]

Ok one last thing that I was told is that with the aeration method, even if it ices over, gas exchange will still happen. It's because the domed area is clear thin ice and gas will penetrate through it. Any thoughts on this?

Any thoughts on this??

That is the first time i've heard of it. I suppose if the domed ice is thin enough then there will be some level of penetration. All decomposing bacterias, at least those I am aware of, are either dormant or dead by the time water temperature gets near freezing since ammonia notably increases dependent upon your fish load, since the fish still excrete ammonia even with their low metabolism. The gases are a byproduct of bacterias decomposing organics. Since these bacterias are disabled in cold water, then I would bet any gas accumulation is very close to almost not existent. So, I bet only a very small amount of penetration, such as through thin ice, would be all that is needed to avoid the gas danger. I have not read anything yet thoroughly explaining the exact gas exchange danger. I have read much more about O2 dangers during winter much more so than gas dangers. With the decomposition is almost nonexistent and fish's metabolism is slowed down to a torpor state, then the BOD is extremely low. Since 35*F water temp contains 14mg/L (trying to think offhand on the value, around about that) and fish only start showing O2 distress when O2 is down around 5mg/L (for small fish, more for bigger fish), then I bet it would probably take a while for O2 to be depleted to the point of danger. So, with the very low BOD, then I bet a simple aerator or water flow and exposed water surface area provides just enough O2 for the fish. Also, fish are quite aware of where to go in water to get their O2. That's my theory on it at this moment until I read something that better explains all of this.

My best guess is that increased pathogens due to high organics or high fish load, higher parasite population, disabled fish immune system, more risk for rot gut, O2 is not recharged well enough over time due to low surface area to atmospheric pressure exposure and low water currents, and any gill damage resulting over the years are the main reasons why fish may not survive wintering. Winter fish kills naturally occur even in big lakes and bays, that is without human intervention. Since we do intervene, then I bet chances are better for the fish, but I also bet there is a huge part of luck involved for going a couple of decades or more with absolutely zero fish problems of any kind. I think all we can do is follow good advice and hope for the best.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Wayne Dear, we get lots of ice here, that is why we can drive our big trucks over the ice to the middle of the frozen lake and set up a hut, make a fire on the ice, drill a hole two feet down, and ice fish.... and the fish bite the hook quite well under two feet of ice. Lakes hold their temperature well and still freeze over a good two feet. Most people on this forum are from much warmer zones, so they can't imagine that much ice, and would freak out over the thought of two inches of ice, never mind two feet! They don't have a clue about square tires and frozen eyelashes or plugging in their vehicles, they don't even built their vehicles with plug in heater core down south. Someone is probally reading this right now thinking I'm talking about a "electric vehicle" ha ha ha ....someones going to give me sh+t for that! Oh well... I would be willing to bet good money that if you use only the bubbler, you will get ice over two feet thick!! Helped my friend one year, she had a five foot deep pond, was still trying to get all the ice out of her pond... in late April!!

If you use the bottom heater, with the bubbler, you might be OK. Have you used the bottom heater with the bubbler? How much ice have you seen so far?

I know I seen those pictures somewhere... just can't find it right now. I just got a tablet and the screen is not really big, so I might have missed the two open holes in the ice.

 

[crsublette]

It all depends on your frost line. I bet ya ice is thicker near the borders of lakes versus the interior of lakes due to the frost line.

Colleen, people aren't as ignorant about cold winters as ya make them out to be, unless they live in the very far south or have simply never traveled much. It doesn't have to get crazy cold for just a few of feet of ice accumulation. Its just a few hour drive for me into New Mexico to doe some ice fishing at Eagle's Nest, which is just a 5a zone. It doesn't take much for cold temps to affect batteries as well; I have always maintained trickle chargers on all of my trucks and farm equipment during the winter, except it doesn't get cold enough to use actual heaters unless operating some big diesel rigs.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Charles, turtles here dig themselves into the mud for the winter, cause the bacteria keeps the mud warm. Bacteria can also live in very hot (close to boiling) water well, as discovered in the thermal hot springs located in Yellowstone Park. Experts also believe that there is life on Jupiter's moons, bacterial life that is, under the frozen ice on some of the moons.

So bacterial life does still exist under the frozen lakes and ponds on planet Earth!

 

[crsublette]

I never doubt that bacteria can live in extreme climates. They actually have a specific name, called extremophiles I think. These bacteria are mostly irrelavant to us in the pond hobby. In ponding context, it is completely different. There are also bacteria that can still process ammonia in cold water except the conversion rate is extremely slow; so slow that it is mostly irrelavent since most, if not all, of us actually do come out of Winter around March though May.

 

[brandonsdad02]

Oh Colleen. We get more ice down south than you might think. I'm in 6a-6b. I'm right on the line. Once we get around 8" of ice on the lakes and ponds, people drive there trucks or cars out on the ice to there heated fishing hut. The winter of 09'-10' we got hammered with snow. After a December blizzard we had 3' of snow across our whole 4 car driveway. The city came in with a huge end loader to clear our driveway. It took the city 3 days to get our street passable with a 4wd truck. Trucks were the only thing moving around the town. We set a all time record for snowfall that year. Lots of roof cave ins that winter.

We still don't have any snow or ice on the ponds yet so I put in my new pond pump today. Got a 5100gph pump with a 2" discharge.

 

[callingcolleen1]

OK Charles, please forgive me, but do you know what a square tire is?

 

[brandonsdad02]

I also have a block heater on my 2000 jeep grand Cherokee limited.

 

[callingcolleen1]

OK, maybe I'd better get out of my Igloo and see the south....