Aeration for winter question

[addy1]

Mine hangs in 2 feet it did fine last year. No clogging.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

What I stated was that Autotrophic bacteria, for reasons yet unknown, do not oxidize any form of Nitrogen while in a planktonic state. They are only able to do this as a community when quorum sensing occurs. If they are colonized in a biofloc then, yes, they can and do oxidize Nitrogen.
Interestingly, the article that I posted a link to (and others that I have read) makes no distinction between aerated tanks and Activated Sludge tanks although you apparently do.

As with most of our discussions Meyers we are probably plucking hairs with regard to exact definition. To me planktonic simply means free floating. Can planktonic algae no longer be categorized as planktonic if a few on the algae cells stick or floc together? It's true that the bacteria in the aerated WWTS stick to tiny solids (organic and non-organic) suspended in the waste water, but there is no specific solid or static media for them to colonize, they are essentially free floating and in a constant state of change. Although I guess you could think of the microscopic particles like tiny bio media.

I went back and read my posts and read where I mentioned "activated sludge", and what I meant to say was simply "sludge". Referring to the settled solids that accumulate in the bottom of some WWT tanks. The particular treatment process I keep referring to has an activated sludge recycling system for returning activated sludge back to the beginning of the process where solids from this activated sludge are able to settle out and mix with the settled "sludge" in the first tank. So yes there is "activated" sludge in the mix, but I was referring to sludge in the first and only tank in these particular treatment plants where anoxic bacteria would be active. Sorry for any confusion

I do find your reference to quorum sensing interesting, and it is something I must admit I am not very familiar with. Doing a little read it sound like these bacteria need some place to put their roots down before they start actively doing their thing. It doesn't seem like they need to large a quorum if they can do it on microscopic particles.

Quorum sensing
is the regulation of gene expression in response to fluctuations in cell-population density. Quorum sensing bacteria produce and release chemical signal molecules called autoinducers that increase in concentration as a function of cell density.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

As with most of our discussions Meyers we are probably plucking hairs with regard to exact definition. To me planktonic simply means free floating. Can planktonic algae no longer be categorized as planktonic if a few on the algae cells stick or floc together? It's true that the bacteria in the aerated WWTS stick to tiny solids (organic and non-organic) suspended in the waste water, but there is no specific solid or static media for them to colonize, they are essentially free floating and in a constant state of change. Although I guess you could think of the microscopic particles like tiny bio media.

I went back and read my posts and read where I mentioned "activated sludge", and what I meant to say was simply "sludge". Referring to the settled solids that accumulate in the bottom of some WWT tanks. The particular treatment process I keep referring to has an activated sludge recycling system for returning activated sludge back to the beginning of the process where solids from this activated sludge are able to settle out and mix with the settled "sludge" in the first tank. So yes there is "activated" sludge in the mix, but I was referring to sludge in the first and only tank in these particular treatment plants where anoxic bacteria would be active. Sorry for any confusion

I do find your reference to quorum sensing interesting, and it is something I must admit I am not very familiar with. Doing a little read it sound like these bacteria need some place to put their roots down before they start actively doing their thing. It doesn't seem like they need to large a quorum if they can do it on microscopic particles.

Quorum sensing
is the regulation of gene expression in response to fluctuations in cell-population density. Quorum sensing bacteria produce and release chemical signal molecules called autoinducers that increase in concentration as a function of cell density.

Since all of the information that I receive is gleaned from scientific research papers, I use the scientific community's definitions and terminology.


Plankton, marine and freshwater organisms that, because they are nonmotile or too small or weak to swim against the current, exist in a drifting state. The term plankton is a collective name for all such organisms—including certain algae, bacteria, protozoans, crustaceans, mollusks, and coelenterates, as well as representatives from almost every other phylum of animals. Plankton is distinguished from nekton, which is composed of strong-swimming animals, and from benthos, which includes sessile, creeping, and burrowing organisms on the seafloor. Large floating seaweeds (for example, Sargassum, which constitutes the Sargasso Sea) and various related multicellular algae are not considered plankton but pleuston. Pleuston are forms of life that live at the interface of air and water. Organisms resting or swimming on the surface film of the water are called neuston (e.g., the alga Ochromonas).

The term microscopic is also relative. A human red blood cell and an E. coli bacterium are both considered microscopic in size yet the red blood cell is 5 times as big as the E. coli cell. Any suspended microscopic particle of inert material can serve as a base for the formation of a micro-colony of bacteria. The higher the level of TSS in a pond the more likely this will occur. As far as defining colony size requirements for quorum sensing I offer this:
Ensembles of bacteria are able to coordinate their phenotypic behavior in accordance with the size, density, and growth state of the ensemble. This is achieved through production and exchange of diffusible signal molecules in a cell–cell regulatory system termed quorum sensing. In the generic quorum sensor a positive feedback in the production of signal molecules defines the conditions at which the collective behavior switches on. In spite of its conceptual simplicity, a proper measure of biofilm colony “size” appears to be lacking. We establish that the cell density multiplied by a geometric factor which incorporates the boundary conditions constitutes an appropriate size measure. The geometric factor is the square of the radius for a spherical colony or a hemisphere attached to a reflecting surface. If surrounded by a rapidly exchanged medium, the geometric factor is divided by three. For a disk-shaped biofilm the geometric factor is the horizontal dimension multiplied by the height, and the square of the height of the biofilm if there is significant flow above the biofilm. A remarkably simple factorized expression for the size is obtained, which separates the all-or-none ignition caused by the positive feedback from the smoother activation outside the switching region.
In layman's terms, this means that it depends on the surface quality of the sub-strate and water turbulence. I prefer to infer that quorum sensing occurs when there are enough cells colonized to form a network. The larger the network, the stronger the quorum sensing. These colonies would still be microscopic in size.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

So I guess if we put it all together what we are really talking about is Planktonic Bacteria Quorums.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

So I guess if we put it all together what we are really talking about is Planktonic Bacteria Quorums.

In a manner of speaking. The science community draws the distinction at individual organisms when describing plankton, but used as a descriptive adjective I guess it could be applied to Biofloc.

 

[waynefrcan]

Well 6 week test is 0 ammonia?? This did not happen last winter at all. So Meyer I have to eat crow now and thank you. Your science has held up at least for now.

But nitrite is at 3 now? I will have a better look tomorrow and re-test.

 

[waynefrcan]

Wayne, do you think that if the fish were transferred into the tubs during warmer weather, a more substantial biofilm layer would have developed and waste processing wouldn't be an issue?
At these temperatures, there won't be any new growth of the biofilm.

That might have helped, but I just reported 0 ammonia for the first time so something is going on in the bio cycle..

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Full test result details, please. All parameters.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

So Meyer I have to eat crow now and thank you.

Nonsense. A celebratory libation is more appropriate. Maybe two or three!!

 

[waynefrcan]

ammonia 0
nitrate 40 ppm
nitrite 3 ppm
ph 7.7
kh hardness 100 ppm
gh gen hardness 180

I use Prime which neutralizes ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. I didn't use Prime last winter.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

ammonia 0
nitrate 40 ppm
nitrite 3 ppm
ph 7.7
kh hardness 100 ppm
gh gen hardness 180

I use Prime which neutralizes ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. I didn't use Prime last winter.

You omitted water temperature.
Apparently you are reaching the end of the 'new pond' cycle as evidenced by the Nitrate level. Salt is also a method of neutralizing the effects of Nitrite. Water changes will reduce Nitrate.
What is the general fish behavior?
Refresh my memory on the time-line involved here...from initial transfer to present.

 

[waynefrcan]

water temps same at 38-40F. was doing 50% water changes every 2 weeks but seeing better results I went back to 30%. Fish are perfect. 6 weeks now starting Oct 1. 3 tubs, 3 filters, 3 aerators, all the bio media from the pond, Savio brand set up rated for 10,000 gals.

thanks

 

[Meyer Jordan]

water temps same at 38-40F. was doing 50% water changes every 2 weeks but seeing better results I went back to 30%. Fish are perfect. 6 weeks now starting Oct 1. 3 tubs, 3 filters, 3 aerators, all the bio media from the pond, Savio brand set up rated for 10,000 gals.

thanks

Thanks for the info. I wanted to compare the cycling time at that temperature to the time line for typical cycling (~4 weeks).

 

[waynefrcan]

Well, all is well on the Western cold front. The big 3 killers are all at 0ppm. Thanks again Meyer.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Well, all is well on the Western cold front. The big 3 killers are all at 0ppm. Thanks again Meyer.

Great news!
Don't thank me, thank those that did the hard hands-on research.