Aeration for winter question

[waynefrcan]

That's my point, inside tub setups can not support a proper level of good bacteria to tackle ammonia with even a normal fish load.

I will believe the science of the majority which is it won't work. Your minority opinion is just wrong.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

f you were even partly right my ammonia would be reduced and it hasn't.

Not if the total Ammonia production by the fish exceeds the total oxidation capacity of the existing Ammonia oxidizing bacteria and archaea. There will still be a surplus of Ammonia that will steadily increase the total Ammonia level.

 

[MitchM]

Wayne, do you think that if the fish were transferred into the tubs during warmer weather, a more substantial biofilm layer would have developed and waste processing wouldn't be an issue?
At these temperatures, there won't be any new growth of the biofilm.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Nitrifying bacteria are planktonic at times, but are unable to oxidize Ammonia or Nitrite unless they are attached (sessile).

Not that it applies to this situation, but that statement is just not true. There are lots of different types of nitrifying bacteria, and there are bacteria that will convert ammonia and nitrite while free floating (planktonic). I've been in portable waste water treatment plants that depend on them.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I should have clarified that statement by confining it to Autotrophic Nitrifying bacteria. Some planktonic heterotrophs will act as Nitrifiers in anoxic conditions.
In WWTPs, most oxidation is carried out in Activated sludge, which itself provides a substrate for biofilm development. So the original statement still applies.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Just to clarify, although the WWTPs that I was speaking did have an initial settlement tank with some anoxic bacteria action going on in the activated sludge at the bottom of that initial tank, the plants mainly used a series of heavily aerated tanks utilizing aerobic free floating bacteria as the principal nitrifiers. There was no solid media utilized in these tanks for these bacteria to attach themselves to, so they were most definitely "planktonic", and aerobic.
As I say this doesn't really apply to Wayne's situation as the bacteria process employed in these aeration tanks likely would not be very effective at the temps he is dealing with.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

so they were most definitely "planktonic", and aerobic.

But they were not autotrophic. Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria i.e. Nitrosomonas, Nitrobacter, Nitrospira only oxidize the various forms of Nitrogen in a colony situation where quorum sensing triggers the process. This is only possible in a sessile state. It is possible, and is utilized in some WWTPs, to promote the formation of biofloc (a form of biofilm) to aid in the nitrification process. Although the floc may be considered planktonic because it is free-floating, the bacteria that colonize this floc are still considered sessile. To be considered planktonic, bacteria must be suspended as individual cells.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

A very comprehensive paper of WWTP aeration.
www.processenergy.com/Aeration%20Paper.pdf

 

[morewater]

QUOTE="MitchM, post: 281414, member: 4402"]I have the most severe winter than anyone else that posts here, and my pond breathers had a slight film on them, but nothing that I considered unusual.
How thick was the muck on the breather intakes? I would examine that first in case there is something else going on in your pond during the winter. Maybe the breathers were in too shallow of an area. I really don't think adding "cold water bacteria" is a good idea. There's no good reason for using that stuff, whatever it is.
[/QUOTE]

Mitch, I used to live in Grand Centre (near Cold Lake AFB). Is that near to you? Hard times out there now, from the economic data I've seen. Growing number of delinquency rates on mortgages, personal loans, etc. The Saudis are putting us out of the oil business, it would seem.

As to the pond breathers, they work great, easy to install, etc. They are, however, a bit of a pain to clean come Spring. I've had good luck using a variety of bottle brush sizes. The pump cage needs to be opened to allow for the cleaning of the pump itself, not a big deal. I've customized mine somewhat by putting a zip-tie on the hose/hose barb and using zip ties to secure the heating line to the breather tube so that it's in physical contact with the transparent "breather".

Shortening the pump line was necessary in some instances where the pump "cage" was sitting on the bottom of the pond, creating the hazard of leaves being drawn onto the "cage" surface, decreasing the pump efficiency. It doesn't seem that it would be an easy task to replace the original breather pump, should it croak, as there is a rather strange electrical connection that doesn't look to be alterable in the event of a pump failure.

The only ice I've seen here so far this December (north of Toronto), are the cubes in my Gin & Tonic. That's how I like my ice. Doubling the amount of Gin in drinks mitigates the possibility of contaminated ice in the Dominican. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. Cross my eyes.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

But they were not autotrophic. Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria i.e. Nitrosomonas, Nitrobacter, Nitrospira only oxidize the various forms of Nitrogen in a colony situation where quorum sensing triggers the process. This is only possible in a sessile state. It is possible, and is utilized in some WWTPs, to promote the formation of biofloc (a form of biofilm) to aid in the nitrification process. Although the floc may be considered planktonic because it is free-floating, the bacteria that colonize this floc are still considered sessile. To be considered planktonic, bacteria must be suspended as individual cells.

Excellent point Meyers >>> "Although the floc may be considered planktonic because it is free-floating, the bacteria that colonize this floc are still considered sessile." This is essentially true. The bacteria generally attached themselves to particulates (floc) suspended in the water, however I will point out that in the real world it is not uncommon for other planktonic organisms to "floc" together and or to also be "sessile" at some point in their life cycle.
As to whether the particular strains of aerobic bacteria floating (flocking) around in these aerated tanks were classified as autotropic or not, I can't say for sure. That question just never came up for some reason. Frankly I wonder how can you be so positive they weren't? I can't see why they wouldn't be chemoautotrophs just like the other bacteria you mentioned, utilizing the chemical reaction between hydrogen sulfide/methane with oxygen to make energy/food.

 

[MitchM]

"Mitch, I used to live in Grand Centre (near Cold Lake AFB). Is that near to you? Hard times out there now, from the economic data I've seen. Growing number of delinquency rates on mortgages, personal loans, etc. The Saudis are putting us out of the oil business, it would seem.

As to the pond breathers, they work great, easy to install, etc. They are, however, a bit of a pain to clean come Spring. I've had good luck using a variety of bottle brush sizes. The pump cage needs to be opened to allow for the cleaning of the pump itself, not a big deal. I've customized mine somewhat by putting a zip-tie on the hose/hose barb and using zip ties to secure the heating line to the breather tube so that it's in physical contact with the transparent "breather".

Shortening the pump line was necessary in some instances where the pump "cage" was sitting on the bottom of the pond, creating the hazard of leaves being drawn onto the "cage" surface, decreasing the pump efficiency. It doesn't seem that it would be an easy task to replace the original breather pump, should it croak, as there is a rather strange electrical connection that doesn't look to be alterable in the event of a pump failure.

The only ice I've seen here so far this December (north of Toronto), are the cubes in my Gin & Tonic. That's how I like my ice. Doubling the amount of Gin in drinks mitigates the possibility of contaminated ice in the Dominican. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. Cross my eyes.

I'm about 1-1/2 hours northwest of Calgary, so Grand Centre would be about 6 hours northeast of me.

For cleaning the breathers, all I've done is hose them off in the spring, that's it. I did have to take the cap off one of them to re attach the water line in the top heated breather tube. Otherwise, pretty trouble free.
I'm pretty sure that the pump is DC voltage, so that black box is probably a voltage converter.
It's probably cheaper to replace the whole breather instead of just the pump. I doubt you could find a replacement pump anyways

.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Excellent point Meyers >>> "Although the floc may be considered planktonic because it is free-floating, the bacteria that colonize this floc are still considered sessile." This is essentially true. The bacteria generally attached themselves to particulates (floc) suspended in the water, however I will point out that in the real world it is not uncommon for other planktonic organisms to "floc" together and or to also be "sessile" at some point in their life cycle.
As to whether the particular strains of aerobic bacteria floating (flocking) around in these aerated tanks were classified as autotropic or not, I can't say for sure. That question just never came up for some reason. Frankly I wonder how can you be so positive they weren't? I can't see why they wouldn't be chemoautotrophs just like the other bacteria you mentioned, utilizing the chemical reaction between hydrogen sulfide/methane with oxygen to make energy/food.

What I stated was that Autotrophic bacteria, for reasons yet unknown, do not oxidize any form of Nitrogen while in a planktonic state. They are only able to do this as a community when quorum sensing occurs. If they are colonized in a biofloc then, yes, they can and do oxidize Nitrogen.
Interestingly, the article that I posted a link to (and others that I have read) makes no distinction between aerated tanks and Activated Sludge tanks although you apparently do.

 

[cas]

I'm pretty sure that the pump is DC voltage, so that black box is probably a voltage converter.

Thanks. I had no idea what it was for.

 

[morewater]

I'm about 1-1/2 hours northwest of Calgary, so Grand Centre would be about 6 hours northeast of me.

For cleaning the breathers, all I've done is hose them off in the spring, that's it. I did have to take the cap off one of them to re attach the water line in the top heated breather tube. Otherwise, pretty trouble free.
I'm pretty sure that the pump is DC voltage, so that black box is probably a voltage converter.
It's probably cheaper to replace the whole breather instead of just the pump. I doubt you could find a replacement pump anyways

.

Yeah, that's what I figured. In any event, these units are cheap enough that they're easily replaceable rather than repairable. The key is keeping the pump cage free from debris to maximize the pump efficiency

 

[MitchM]

Yeah, that's what I figured. In any event, these units are cheap enough that they're easily replaceable rather than repairable. The key is keeping the pump cage free from debris to maximize the pump efficiency

I haven't had any problems with the cages clogging, but my breathers hang in about 5 feet of water.

.