Aeration for winter question

[cas]

I've never measured ammonia levels during the winter.
I'll do that this year.

So how are you going to get to your pond water when it is iced over? I will be watching for your results.

 

[MitchM]

So how are you going to get to your pond water when it is iced over? I will be watching for your results.

With the submerged circulation pump running this year, maybe a hole will open up temporarily. Otherwise, I can take the cap off one of the pond breathers and get a sample from them.
It's probably another few weeks before I can walk on the ice though.

 

[cas]

@MitchM I love it that you go to the extra effort. Keep us posted on the pond temps too. I am curious how the submerged pump does this year.

 

[MitchM]

Thank you Cas, I appreciate that.

My pond temperature is at 0.6 celcius today, 33 farenheit.
I think it will stay there now until next April/May. It's going to be a constant battle between the floating ice and the heat from the earth.
My temperature sensor is accurate to +/- 0.5 celcius, and the readout seems to move in those 0.5C increments at these lower temperatures.
Ice cover is 100%.

 

[Smaug]

I've never measured ammonia levels during the winter.
I'll do that this year.

I have,never even a trace,same as warm weather.

 

[waynefrcan]

We aren't disagreeing.
You are disagreeing with science-based fact, not me. I am only the messenger.

The original topic I had was, will my garage tubs cycle in cold temps, you said yes and I have proved no so far. For me to get the same results as your Lagoon study, I would have to have way under the amount of fish load that would normally cycle in room temps and to max out the entire body of water with bio media. That is just not real world. Bringing in fish from a large pond into tubs will carry higher fish load. And the fish need room to swim.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Considering that Ammonia toxicity is governed by both pH and water temperature, Ammonia levels may not be your real problem. What is the pH and temperature of your indoor tanks at present?

 

[waynefrcan]

High PH 7-8 city water, temps so far 40-42F, fish are somewhat active and I'm feeding them. Last winter no food, no filtration, same PH. Heaters kept water at 36-40F.

That study also suggests that nitrifying bacteria are not free swimming organisms. A few people will have a problem with that idea.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

High PH 7-8 city water, temps so far 40-42F, fish are somewhat active and I'm feeding them. Last winter no food, no filtration, same PH. Heaters kept water at 36-40F.

That study also suggests that nitrifying bacteria are not free swimming organisms. A few people will have a problem with that idea.

If you have a TAN of 2.0, with the temperature range and the pH range that you indicated, the level of free (toxic) Ammonia is borderline between being safe and safe for extended periods. The cut-off value is 2% of TAN. Using the highest numbers 42F temp and 8.0 pH, gives a level of about 0.025 or slightly elevated, but using the lower figures of 40F temp and 7.0 pH the level drops to slightly over 0.002. As you can see, the slightest rise in either pH and/or Temps can determine if Ammonia levels are safe.
Has your previous Winter Ammonia levels capped at a certain level? Has 2.0 been the maximum level detected all winter?

Nitrifying bacteria are planktonic at times, but are unable to oxidize Ammonia or Nitrite unless they are attached (sessile).

 

[waynefrcan]

City water is mostly 8 range. YEs always in the range of 3-4ppm. Testing is just with mix of 2 chemicals and matching the color chart. There probably is better methods.

I'll post results with next test.

 

[waynefrcan]

4 week test and it's still high 4-6 ppm. The color chart has it between 4 and 8 ppm. I will give it one more 2 week cycle after water changes and if the same I'm pulling all filters and bio media, because as many predicted very little to no bacteria activity to combat ammonia levels in real life fish settings.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Pulling the filters and biomedia will only make a bad situation worse.
Not enough SSA for biofilm development is your main obstacle. You have taken your fish from a pond of at least 15,000 gallons and placed them in 3 separate containers totaling 425 gallons (less than 3% of the main pond) and provided LESS biofiltration (likely also less than 3%). There is no way, under these conditions, to avoid high Ammonia even if the extant Nitrifying bacteria were functioning a 100%. Without adequate SSA. a bacteria population sufficient to handle the Nitrogen load can not be accommodated.

 

[waynefrcan]

No one is going to max out total water space with bio media, just won't happen, therefore your information and study are just wrong and misleading.

This fish load will cycle in room temps.

I pulled all the filter media from the pond and put into the tubs in filters and the rest in the water. 6500 gal pond. Lack of bio media is not the problem. Lack of bacteria activity in 40F water is the problem.

In fact I'm willing to bet normal bio media setup would not even provide enough bacteria function to handle even half the normal fish load.

 

[waynefrcan]

I will check again and report in 2 weeks.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Lack of bio media is not the problem.

But you are forgetting one important fact, that is the submerged surface area of the your pond which is also considered SSA for the purpose of determining total Nitrification. The SSA in the three (3) tubs is minuscule in comparison. At low temperatures, especially, this total SSA plays an important role in providing for additional colonization of the nitrifying bacteria. The three (3) tubs do not have anywhere near the total SSA of your pond.
You are going to believe what you want.
I prefer to stay on the side of science.