100 Gallon Balcony Pond Build Complete

[Dave 54]

Yes!, another entertaining thread, and to think I almost missed it. :biggrin:
Much as I hate to say it, I tend to agree with Waterbug on this one. Not that everybody thinks they are some sort of self proclaimed expert here, (certainly if anybody here is guilty of that, Waterbug himself is at the top of the list), but I agree that everybody has the right to set up their pond any way they want. Even if that means that fish might die. I don't think Sarin has the deliberate intention of killing his/her fish, although I'm sure (she?) realizes it may be taking a larger risk of doing so with that little container pond set up.
I contrast that with a woman I know who was planning a wedding for her daughter, and one of the table setting she wanted to have at the reception was a goldfish in a wine glass at each table setting. I asked her what she planned to do with all the fish after the event and her reply was to flush them all down the toilet. LOL She obviously wasn't concerned about the welfare of the fish, so instead I appealed to her sense of vanity. I talk her out of it by telling her that many of the goldfish might not survive the evening, and that some might even be dead by the time they started eating, and how unattractive it would be to have a dead fish in a glass sitting in front of you while you are trying to eat. Still, it she wanted to do it she had the right, although I'm sure there are others who would have been offended.
By the same token, this is an open forum and we all have the right to express our own views, and as Sir Huff said, "The people on this forum are very well mannered compared to what I see elsewhere." Mostly, well mannered anyway. :biggrin:

The term expert goes to those who have taken all the exams and gotten docterates to hang on their walls or bacme health officials in the BkkS or AKCA .
However there are to take many of us have years behind us and are well informed about our subject here in the UK Val and I are termed Senior Aquarists a term that comes after many years of fishkeeping but it doesnt mean expert .
Anyone will tell you that in our hobby you never stop learning, as something new in the ways of ideas on keeping our charges on how to treat our charges, changes in equipment, new books etc that must be kept abreast of ,
To set oneself up as an expert is a dangerous thing to do it tends to come back and bite you as it did to a self proclaimed koi Doctor in Plymouth who was found out when one of our Members became Chair of the Health Standars Committee in the British organization strangely you dont see business cards at the Vets anymore stating that he was.
I wouldnt call waterbug an expert he is exremely well informed as are others including ourselves on this site but even we can make mistakes, it's pretty hard to discover a fishes problem from thousnds of miles away as it is in the US, Canada and even the UK Because we all live far apart in a geographic sense meeting each other on line only or if you are lucky to have another member in your State City or town because its only then we get up close to your pond and your fishes problem..
We all stated our opinion on Serins pond nice as it is but unsuitable for keeping koi in.but not goldfish and that was just on the growth rate.
Planning permission building regulations in reality should be inquired into just incase someone complains and she is forced to take it down that is plain old common sense
When we applied to have a pond we found that planning permission had to be given if it was of breeze block construction , so to get around this we used a free standing pond because it is then classed as a temporary structure like a shed or Avery , problem solved no permission needed :biggrin:

rgrds

Dave

 

[Mmathis]

Just an FYI, but the OP did have a topic going prior to this one. In it, he/she was asking for advice regarding the building of the balcony pond. Many of the same issues that were brought up in THIS topic were also brought up back then.

Personally, I got the impression that the OP had an idea and was going to carry it out regardless of what anyone else had to say -- OK, so then WHY ask for advice in the first place? It sounded like the OP also had some misconceptions regarding fish-keeping in cold weather [specifically]. This was addressed, as well.

Then, this thread is started and it's like the OP is saying "I told you so." That kind of attitude does tend to lend itself to critical comebacks. I didn't get the impression that anyone was trying to be "an expert" judge here [maybe I missed something], but more trying to help the OP understand what can [and probably will] happen, opinionated and/or factual.

What the OP chooses to do with his/her pond is his business. If this is a complete success, great! If not, then we'll probably never hear from him again. When we do things out of ignorance, that's one thing. But when we've asked for and been given the information, and do it anyway...... Fish are lives, not experiments!

 

[JohnHuff]

Now, that was entertaining!

Not that everybody thinks they are some sort of self proclaimed expert here, (certainly if anybody here is guilty of that, Waterbug himself is at the top of the list).

 

[Waterbug]

What do you expect us to do? Pat him on the back while privately thinking it's not good? I think the guys gave him great constructive criticism. The people on this forum are very well mannered compared what I see elsewhere.

I don't know...maybe ask a question or two...like "can you post your water test readings?" If the numbers are better than you expected maybe a follow up like "I thought they'd be higher, how much food are you feeding?" You know, maybe learn something while you have the chance. Wouldn't you be interested if these fish can survive and grow? If it does fail wouldn't you be interested in learning when and why, even if it just confirms what you already think you know?

 

[Waterbug]

Yes!, another entertaining thread, and to think I almost missed it.

Never miss a chance to pile into a flame war.

Much as I hate to say it, I tend to agree with Waterbug on this one.

Wish I had a nickle for every time even the slightest agreement with me has to prefaced with "I hate to say it". Really seems to chap people's hides to think I might have stumbled into a rational thought. I get a huge kick out of it every time I read that phase. I just picture people metaphorically biting clean thru their tongue having to type any kind of agreement with me, even the back handed type like this one. Personal attacks are of course the cornerstone of any good flame war.

Not that everybody thinks they are some sort of self proclaimed expert here, (certainly if anybody here is guilty of that, Waterbug himself is at the top of the list).

And there it is, that oh so charming forum personal attack.

Now I do realize I probably do seem like a self proclaimed expert in this forum. In other forums, ponds. concrete, whatever, I'm considered more of a normal level pond dude. Below normal in many area, above in a few areas that I have experience with. But here many of my ideas seem mystifying. In other forums most of those same ideas are posted everyday by dozens and dozens of people and have been for years. I learned a lot of what I know in those forums. I believe in data, testing, using the experience of other people. In this forum opinion is main component in any "fact". So yeah, always going to be some conflict there.

 

[crsublette]

Like I said before it was my mistake. I was always told it is normal to lose one or two fish with a new pond, am I wrong?

Assuming the fish were going to die upon and after purchase, then I suppose this could be claimed as "normal".

Otherwise, personally, due to the huge volume of fish, I would have done a fishless cycle to be sure the plants were growing good and to build a small, aesthetically pleasing, trickle tower, and maybe something else if it can be hidden. Once the plants and biological filtration is consuming all ammonia dosages. Then, I would have introduced the heavy fish stock density.

 

[crsublette]

I liked the pond because I think it is a genuine idea to have a pond on a balcony.


Personally, not for sure why this would be called a "container" pond, whereas a 6,000 concrete above-ground pond is not called a "container" pond. I suppose an outdoor aquarium tank could be called a "container" pond or maybe we could call this balcony pond an "aquarium" pond. Meh, silly to get caught up with semantics.

 

[Waterbug]

It should be a red flag when every single poster agrees this set up is doomed for failure, except for Waterbug, who simply just wants to say no-one else knows anything.

I feel like I'm on solid ground saying you cannot predict the future. You may think your opinion, or guess, is an absolute certainty but I'm skeptical you're actually have that kind of power.

Sure, we could all keep our mouths shut, but we all know the next thread will be "why are my fish dead". Then I will just laugh.

Yes, I'm sure you do indeed look forward to that day. You would be absolutely over the moon should anyone one fail at trying to do something difficult, something that takes a bit of learning, testing, trying, and effort. You can delight in your ignorance that thousands of people before you had to try many new things in order for you to have all the equipment and methods you use to keep your perfect pond. You think all that knowledge just fell out of the sky? People tried and failed many, many times to learn what we know today. Bummer you don't have a time machine so you could go back and laugh at all of them too. Dead fish are a hoot. You could feel so superior. What a glorious feeling.

People trying new things today is how we're going to know the things we'll be using tomorrow. Just because all learning has stopped completely for most people doesn't mean it has actually stopped.

There's a very old saying amongst serious Koi keepers..."You can keep Koi in a bathtub." It's an acknowledgement that anyone can become knowledgeable enough, and with enough experience, master Koi rearing. Even in a bathtub. That people can't understand this concept only reflects on their own abilities and willingness to learn.

 

[crsublette]

And obviously the number of fish and kinds can be kept in this size pond, even more. Growers and retail stores do it all the time. Have for years and years. You've already said you're going to test water parameters...that puts you way, way ahead of 90% of the "experts" who post in pond forums.

Correct, with many caveats overlooked there.

Growers are actually using products to jumpstart their filtration, constantly refreshing their carbonate source, and significantly micromanaging their water chemistry.

The generic retail stores I see doing it are always scooping out dead fish prior to unlocking the doors or the instant they open the doors.

 

[Waterbug]

Personally, not for sure why this would be called a "container" pond, whereas a 6,000 concrete above-ground pond is not called a "container" pond. I suppose an outdoor aquarium tank could be called a "container" pond or maybe we could call this balcony pond an "aquarium" pond. Meh, silly to get caught up with semantics.

There is no formal definition I'm aware of. To me something outdoors, not attached to the ground, sitting on a patio, aquarium size, with some plants, I call a container pond. My point was that there are lots of people with very similar structures who call these container ponds. So if someone did want more info on these types of things, or other forums with people more experienced with these and not caring pitch forks, "container pond" would be a good search term.

 

[crsublette]

There is no formal definition I'm aware of. To me something outdoors, not attached to the ground, sitting on a patio, aquarium size, with some plants, I call a container pond. My point was that there are lots of people with very similar structures who call these container ponds. So if someone did want more info on these types of things, or other forums with people more experienced with these and not caring pitch forks, "container pond" would be a good search term.

Fair enough.

 

[crsublette]

What ever I am not an expect and sure no chemist but I know what works for me and in almost 10 years I only lost 1 shubbie and he jumped out during spawning .I blame myself for that as mom was really sick and then past on and I had not put the net over the pond .You never know how many fish you can keep or how big they can get .I started out not knowing much and was lucky .I took several ponds apart ,those preformed ponds abandoned for years no filters and no pumps no electric and found koi and goldfish as healthy as can be .The last preformed i took out was 220 gallon sized one and there 4 koi in there almost 2 feet long and house was abandoned for 4 years and how long before that pond was not tended to no one knows .Go figure .I gave them to new ponders I had meant and they still have them and they look great .Makes you think at times if over fussing makes a pond worse .To much knowledge at times can be bad and I do repeat my self alot .I am no chemist and don't know much but I do know what works for me . :cheerful: And I can smile everyday .

I'd be very curious to see a picture of those koi. For them to go abused for that long, in that little of water, with no extra food, I would imagine their deformities are noticeable although likely not noticeable to someone who wants a fish "that looks like a pretty fish" in their pond.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Now I do realize I probably do seem like a self proclaimed expert in this forum. In other forums, ponds. concrete, whatever, I'm considered more of a normal level pond dude. Below normal in many area, above in a few areas that I have experience with. But here many of my ideas seem mystifying. In other forums most of those same ideas are posted everyday by dozens and dozens of people and have been for years. I learned a lot of what I know in those forums. I believe in data, testing, using the experience of other people. In this forum opinion is main component in any "fact". So yeah, always going to be some conflict there.

I wouldn't say that, actually I think, and you know I've stated this many times, that you tend to have a lot of good ideas, not mystifying at all.
The self proclaimed expert comes more from how you often tend to belittle other members here with condescending statements. Remember, you were the one who first referred to the others as "experts", even though no one claimed to be such. That's the reason I voiced a reluctance to agree with you. Skip those kind of statements and I can wholeheartedly agree with you. :beerchug:

Anyway, you and Charles have a good night.

 

[Waterbug]

Correct, with many caveats overlooked there.

Obviously. True in any pond. Size alone is a very tiny factor in keeping fish alive. Fish load is a much bigger factor, but still, just one factor. Low fish load by itself is not a good plan.

Growers are actually using products to jumpstart their filtration, constantly refreshing their carbonate source, and significantly micromanaging their water chemistry.

True for any well maintained pond of any size and fish load.

The generic retail stores I see doing it are always scooping out dead fish prior to unlocking the doors or the instant they open the doors.

There are tons of stores that don't care if fish die. I personally think that has more to do with their abilities than tank size. I assume if they 2x, 5x 10x their tank sizes they'd still have a ton of losses.

I was more referring to the more serious fish retailers, like Koi retailers like Tse Koi in San Jose CA. In business for many years, maybe $300K in fish stock, very heavy fish loads, water always perfect, carry stock for months. And they have surprisingly little filtration compared to their fish loads. The trick I think is they're very knowledgeable about Koi rearing.

It can be done, is very common, and has been done for many years.

 

[JohnHuff]

I don't know...maybe ask a question or two...like "can you post your water test readings?" If the numbers are better than you expected maybe a follow up like "I thought they'd be higher, how much food are you feeding?" You know, maybe learn something while you have the chance. Wouldn't you be interested if these fish can survive and grow? If it does fail wouldn't you be interested in learning when and why, even if it just confirms what you already think you know?

You do the math. 100g balcony pond. A lot of fish. Ten 2" bioballs for filtration. A couple of dead koi. Dead water hyacinths. Canada.
You know better. You know I'm a great fan of yours, but if you really don't know what's going to happen then my t̶r̶u̶s̶t̶ exaltation of you is sadly misplaced.