What should my next step be?

[Waterbug]

They did not test KH or GH. I will get a test kit myself and be get more complete results. I feel like I need to do something now to raise PH and lower ammonia. My compulsive behavior has gotten me in trouble before though. Your thoughts?

Sounds like your cognitive functions are over coming your compulsive behavior...I'd keep doing that.

My standard response would be to raise pH, but like I said, you're in a bit of a pickle. I would not do anything until I knew more, see next post.

 

[Waterbug]

I was at Petsmart today and picked up a few products that were on clearance. The first is Clearpond's Chloramine Buster. It states that it removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. The second is Clearpond's Beneficial Bacteria. The directions on the beneficial bacteria state that I need the ammonia level to be zero before I use it.

Now would be a good time to read up on ammonium vs ammonia. And check out the charts I mentioned earlier. Shouldn't freak you out. Every cloud has a silver lining and this one is yours. Repeat to yourself over and over "it's not an ammonia test, it's a total ammonia test".

You could check into a Seachem MultiTest Ammonia Test Kit. That can tell you actual ammonia vs ammonium and works even if a binder is added, at least for products like Prime and AmGuard. Probably Buster too, but you'd have to check.

Buy a water thermometer. That way you'll know whether or not to add an ammonia binder. The binder makes ammonia safe right? But I think you may already have safe ammonia. Water temp and the chart tells you. Keep in mind your test kit will still show what? Total ammonia. Want to know how many people pour bottles of ammonia lock into their pond trying to reduce ammonia? Lots.

Take the Beneficial Bacteria back to the store. You already have the maximum amount of beneficial bacteria your pond can support. You always have the maximum...that's what they do for a living. Beneficial Bacteria in a Bottle, BBB, is a scam. Proven years ago to be a scam by lab coat dudes. There is a single company selling, or was, a BBB that was shown to work in some cases. It had to be refrigerated through the entire supply chain, like milk. And even in this case it only sped up the bio filter cycle by a day or two.

If my PH is too low, and I dont want to raise PH until zero ammonia...would it make sense to add Chloramine Buster now? Then when I have zero ammonia add Beneficial Bacteria? Then do something about PH?

Already went over you won't test 0 ammonia when you add Buster.

Water temp, chart, that will tell you where in the pickle you are located.

Want to get deeper into the pickle. Say you add Buster. Ammonia is safe now right? How do you know. Your ammonia test is the same, maybe higher. Now you're flying blind.

And water changes probably won't help you because that may only add more ammonia, bound ammonia, but you'd be flying blind again.

Keep listening to those cognitive functions, they're saving your butt.

What I personally would be shooting for is to raise pH and leave ammonia in place. The pickle is that this would normally kill the fish. Testing water temp, pH and ammonia will tell you if you're getting into danger and then you can add Buster. I don't like adding stuff because everything interacts with everything else. Buster (and all ammonia binders) create problems with some medical treatments. It makes everything more complicated. But if you have to, you have to.

In a perfect world you're going to get pH up some so bacteria can start converting ammonia, but not so high that ammonia becomes toxic. And water temp also has to be high enough for the bacteria. So a bit of a dance.

There's also a small risk that if for example you only raise KH and not GH that pH could shoot high and the ammonia blinders like Buster unbind at high pH levels, like 12. That's pretty high, but something to keep in the back of one's head.

I'd want pH reading a few times a day if you could manage. Morning and evening at least. These are your only eyes.

Another, not great, possibility is to move the fish to a holding tank. Then you can raise KH & GH (and pH) in the pond and not worry about the ammonia. Let the bacteria come on, and put the fish back.

You can also use Buster on your tap water to see how much ammonia is produced. That would tell you if water changes would help you. I'd also be very interested in the KH, GH and pH of your tab water.

There's a bottom line here at some point...I can tell you all kinds of stuff...but only you can understand your pond. I'm totally blind and could lead you right off a cliff. You have to see for yourself.

 

[ntscott]

Got a liquid test kit and thermometer today. Total ammonia is still .25ppm. PH is up slightly to 6.7. When I did the KH and GH tests it took one drop to change colors. I dont know what I was expecting, but I was expecting some hardness. Is it possible to be zero? The local shop told me our city water is very soft. Water temp at about 6pm was a chilly 45 degrees. BRRR.

WB- The temps on the chart you sent me dont even start until 60 degrees. Lets say my temp was 16 degrees higher than it actually is, which it isnt...with .25ppm total ammonia I wouldnt have any detectable toxic ammonia until a PH of 6.9 and not even approaching dangerous levels until a PH of 8.5.

So based on this info, would I be correct to assume that 1) your guess was correct, no ammonia worries? 2) I also do not need to use the Chloramine Buster and 3) If I want to positively affect my water quality my next step would be to try to raise PH?

You mentioned PH buffering. I dont know what that is. Do I also want to add some hardness to the water?

 

[Waterbug]

...I was expecting some hardness. Is it possible to be zero?

Yep.

The local shop told me our city water is very soft.

You should measure it so you know what you're adding to your pond.

...with .25ppm total ammonia I wouldnt have any detectable toxic ammonia until a PH of 6.9 and not even approaching dangerous levels until a PH of 8.5.

Bingo. You now know more about ponds than 90% of the pond "experts" in the world. I kid you not. It isn't even really that difficult imo.

no ammonia worries?

Bingo.

I also do not need to use the Chloramine Buster

Bingo. Maybe later, watching water temp, pH and the chart. I was a little hard on Buster earlier. I was more trying to get you to see that reaching for the bottle has implications. Implications you don't see on the label and the local shop almost never knows. However, both the manufacturer and local shop can tell you to the penny their exact profit margin on each bottle you buy.

If I want to positively affect my water quality my next step would be to try to raise PH?

You mentioned PH buffering. I dont know what that is. Do I also want to add some hardness to the water?

Google time.

In general...
Acid is low pH, when added to baking soda it fizzes. The acid is, let's say, eating the baking soda. Given enough baking soda you could stick your hand in and not be burned...the acid would be gone. Baking soda is acting as a pH buffer. A solution of baking soda would be about 8.4 pH. Add some 0 pH acid and the solution would stay at 8.4 pH. The acid would be gone and also some of the baking soda would be gone too. You can keep adding acid and pH will stay at 8.4 until there is no more baking soda and then suddenly the solution's pH would drop (crash) and keep going down as more acid is added.

Fish and good bacteria do not like pH crashes. So we try to buffer the water against that and pH swings. Without buffering pH can also shoot high. Your KH being near zero means you have no buffer. Lot's of things can add more acid into your pond, such as decaying organic matter, DOCs, a thunderstorm, many things. With no buffer pH could be driven even lower.

Some complexity for the bigger picture...
A pH of 6.9 is a great pH for Koi...I should say a stable pH of 6.9 is great for Koi. Some great Koi keepers have water in the 6.9 to 7.5 perfect range. Koi grow faster and have better color. Trick is keeping it stable. It's a whole deal, using buffering, but with a lot of control.

Simple method...
When I talk about buffering I'm talking about a simple method people use. Simple to test, cheap and easy to obtain materials. I suggest (and many others in the world, I didn't invent this stuff) adding baking soda to raise KH to 100 to 200 ppm, that's the buffering. However you can choose what level you'd like. You could raise KH to 50 ppm, or even lower, and keep pH in the 7.5 range. But you have to really know your system, because you'd have very little buffer. A little extra acid and a crash. If you keep KH in the 100 to 200 ppm range your pH will be in the 8.4 to 9.0 range.

Dose...
In total you'd be adding about 2 pounds of baking soda per 1,000 gals. But you're starting at a really low pH so you want to go slow and take KH readings. By slow I mean about 1/4 pound per 1,000 gals per day max. So it could take you better than a week to get KH up.

GH too...
You can keep pH even more stable by increasing GH to 100 - 200 ppm. That will keep the baking soda from going above 8.5 so now you have a bracket. The baking soda stops acid from dropping pH below 8.4 and the GH stops the baking soda from pushing pH above 8.5. GH can be increased by adding calcium chloride flake which is found in deicers. The stuff people buy to sprinkle on the sidewalk to melt ice. There's often other ingredidents that have to be checked, but normally safe for fish. Swimming pool stores sell calcium chloride too. Something like 1 pound per 1,000 gals. But go slow and measure so you know where you're at. In addition you can add Epsom salt to add magnesium. Also about 1 pound per 1,000 gals. GH is primarily measuring calcium and magnesium, but can be other minerals.

GH isn't consumed like KH is. Although if you source water is has low GH it could dilute GH levels if you do water changes. Fish food can also raise GH.

Once up, maintain...
Once you raise KH you do have to keep it up. But at that point you'd be out of the pickle and have lots of play. Most people would say 150 ppm KH is good. But 300 ppm gives you more play. Fish can take up to about 10,000 ppm KH via baking soda, in theory. Just to let you know there's not a lot of danger adding too much...once pH is buffered of course. Fish can also take higher GH levels, but there's no set limit because GH can include many substances.

I'd still like a morning reading for pH.

 

[addy1]

My kh is in the over 100 range, ph still sits around 7.6 (measured with a ph meter)

 

[Waterbug]

@ntscott - If you want to double check your numbers please give all the info you have, history of water temp, pH GH, etc with units like ppm. And also your pond size in gals, depth. Water movement like pumps, air pump. And condition of water, recent algae bloom, etc..

I've been having basically the exact same discussing with other people and I forget who's who. For example I thought you were in Maine for some reason.

 

[Waterbug]

My kh is in the over 100 range, ph still sits around 7.6 (measured with a ph meter)

Point?

 

[addy1]

You stated above if your kh is above 100 your ph will be in the 8.6 and higher range, just wondering since mine isn't . Sorry to bother your information flow

 

[Waterbug]

@Addy
I think I said if you raise your KH with baking soda your pH would be in that range. Carbonate can come from many sources as I said. And there's many things that can affect pH. I'm not really inclined to try and post the science in totality. However if you'd like to discuss whether or not baking soda has a pH of 7.6 or high 8's I'd be happy to. It would be a short discussion I think.

But really, most of this comes down to accurate measurements. You for example thought your pond had a DOC level of zero. Bad measurement, not even a good guess. Given a little bit of knowledge about what DOCs are would have alerted most people that the measurement was off. Like if I compute the volume of a 10x10 pond and come up with 1,476,987 gals, experience tells me I may have made a mistake somewhere. However, a person does also have to be open to the possibility that they're capable of making a mistake. Pretty rare in general. Extinct in online forums.

That's why basic general science is so important. Taking a measurement and that level actually being true should not be assumed.

 

[addy1]

well then i made a mistake, doc's I was talking about the white foaming stuff, I have none. Mistakenly said I have none zero, ie white foam/bubble stuff.
ph I don't buffer with baking soda , don't need to ph is fine

And we do admit to mistakes, you are wrong on that assumption

 

[ntscott]

DOC? Department of Corrections? District of Columbia? Dartmouth Outing Club? I'm guessing none of these.

 

[sissy]

dissolved organic compounds

 

[ntscott]

Thanks sissy.

 

[sissy]

I'm afraid ponds can be confusing and to much info can make it worse .I just keep it simple and take a pool net and clean the bottom of the pond every other day .I keep the mat on the top of my filter clean also .I take it out hose it off and let it dry in the sun and i always have another one handy to put in while the other is drying .I soak the pads in peroxide in a tub after hosing them off and then let them dry in the sun .I use the blue reusable furnace filters that home depot sells or buffing machine pads (course one ) I use quilt batting the same way in my filter to pick up all the fine stuff .Rinse ,soak,dry and reuse .I usually don't worry so much about the ph as long as the fish look healthy and are acting normal .I do test though just in case .I also use lava rock in my filters and have a large bag of activated charcoal and a bag each of crushed oyster shells and PDZ horse stall refresher which is just zeolite .Once pond is balanced it pretty much stays that way .The thing is waiting for the filters build up a good bacteria load .patience and all will be fine and a lot of work at first .

 

[addy1]

DOC? Department of Corrections? District of Columbia? Dartmouth Outing Club? I'm guessing none of these.

junk in the water, for some a pita cause it causes white foam / bubbles on the water.

I have never had foam, bubbles in my pond

My pond is large, very basic, a bog for a filter, perfect water conditions, every time I test, no green water, very little algae. No uv light. But it is healthy the fish are healthy I spend very little time fussing over it. My biggest issue was acidic well water when we filled the pond, now fixed with crushed oyster shells = harder water = stable ph around 7.6 and age of pond, plants and bacteria

KISS principle. Works for me and my fish.