What should my next step be?

[pugle1]

So other than the colour, it's the same urethane type expanding foam? I don't mind paying a little extra for the black as it would be harder to see when some squeezes out, but if it's the same stuff that's good to know. The stuff I saw said "fish safe" on the can. I wonder if there's any difference other than the colour. The one you have pictured looks like the brand I saw.

 

[addy1]

My black pond foam, became a black, orange, gray color where the sun hit it after a year.

From what I have read, they are both polyurethane. Great stuff makes the black waterfall foam and the expanding insulation foam
great stuff pond ingredients : polymeric diisocyanate, polyols and hydrocarbon gas mixture
can't find my great stuff normal can to compare

I do see some posting where people have used both in ponds, no frog or fish deaths reported.

per the net:
Polyurethane foam is produced by the reaction between a high molecular weight polyol and toluene diisocyanate (TDI)and/or diphenyl methane diisocyanate (MDI) in the presence of catalysts, surfactants and blowing agents, resulting in a flexible cellular product having a predominantly open-celled structure. Pigments are used to colour the foam.

 

[pugle1]

I guess once it cures, there's no leaching or off-gassing onto the water. If they're essentially the same product, and there's no evidence of critters passing on to the great beyond, then it's all good.

But now I feel like I've hijacked the thread.... so....... back to leaks and water loss

...But thanks again addy1

 

[addy1]

np you were still on the subject of leaks lol

 

[fishin4cars]

Addy, From experience, great stuff and waterfall foam do not work the same. Great stuff gets extremly soft and brittle after two-three years, waterfall foam was still firm and had a great seal after the same amont of time. Also waterfall foam will actually work even in direct contact with water, great stuff will not seal at all if there is any water present. Lastly, Great stuff has a tendency to degrade after time and will start to become powder, when this happens and it blows in the pond I can't think it would be a healthy thing for the fish to intake. I've never seen waterfall foam do this at all. May be made with some of the same products but they do work quite differently over time. IMO, spend the extra money and use the waterfall foam if you need to use anything like this.

 

[Waterbug]

Great Stuff is a brand name covering many products. Some would be very poor for the pond or outdoor, some are fine. I'd stay with the polyurethane versions and anyone really concerned could use Great Stuff Pond & Stone, black in color. Costs almost twice as much as their Gaps & Cracks.

 

[addy1]

Thanks fishin, I used the great stuff under some rocks, than got a good deal on black waterfall foam, a buck a can, from ebay. The company missed coloring some of a batch, so some is white some is black. But it is still pond foam.

I will coat the great stuff that is exposed to keep it from degrading into powder. It is in entering its third summer, so far still firm.

 

[ntscott]

Hey everybody-

Thanks for all of the input. It is all very much welcomed.

I have done a little bit of disassembling, (I stress the word little) of the waterfall where the leaks are apparent. A few stones that were obviously missing from the structure...river rock shaped holes in mortar. I observed that the water was pooling in these spots. I went for a quick and temporary fix of...Waterbug, can you guess? Goop. I swear it is temporary. I had the Rustoleum's version of Flex Seal in the garage. I plugged the obvious holes with rocks and gooped them in. I then got some larger stones and placed them so that most of the water would be diverted from the offending areas. It seems to have fixed most of the leaking. Time will tell.

I went to a local pond shop and they tested my water for free. Here are the results:

Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
PH 6.4
Ammonia .25 ppm

The water seems to be getting a little more clear on its own with just running the pump an hour or so per day. The air and water temerature is still fairly chilly in Portland. The daily high temp are in the mid to upper 50s and overnight lows are in the mid to upper 40s. It is still raining quite a bit. Do these conditions affect the water quality readings? Should I go a few days between feeding them?

And as some of you noticed, yes I seem to already be rather fond of if not hooked on "ponding".

 

[ntscott]

I would also love to add a few decent sized Koi. Would I be creating any new issues introducing more fish at this stage?

 

[Waterbug]

I went for a quick and temporary fix of...Waterbug, can you guess? Goop.

And because I went so far out on a limb it will probably work.

I must confess...I use goop too. When a rock pops out of mortar I epoxy it back in place.

Did the pet store test KH & GH?

The water seems to be getting a little more clear on its own with just running the pump an hour or so per day. The air and water temerature is still fairly chilly in Portland. The daily high temp are in the mid to upper 50s and overnight lows are in the mid to upper 40s.

You don't mention the actual water temp., Air temps don't matter. Here's a little pond trivia, Google “Aeromonas Alley”. There's a water temp range where a bacteria can get the upper hand before the fish immune system is fully working. I mention this because your pH is so low. There could be a problem with the water which could stress fish while in “Aeromonas Alley”, Double whammy.

The 0.25 ppm ammonia is also an issue. Might have been from declorinating the water, but it's still there. Most people will tell you any ammonia is bad, and that's basically true. But it's more interesting than that. A bit more trivia if you like, Google "ammonia vs ammonium". And there are charts where you can tell how much of your reading is safe ammonium, and how much is toxic ammonia. The test can't tell the different, hence the charts. You have very low pH (off the charts low) and I'm guessing pretty low water temps, so you may actually have 0 ammonia. How's that for trivia?

In other threads I've been writing about pH crashes and pH buffering...if you decide to ever go that route you have to be careful in the timing. Raising pH will convert some ammonium into ammonia and that's a problem. You might consider pH buffering before the water gets warmer and there'd be more ammonia issues.

It is still raining quite a bit. Do these conditions affect the water quality readings? Should I go a few days between feeding them?

The pH of rain in your area averages 5.3 to 5.5 (not sure where you are exactly). Can be lower, can be higher (but well under 7.0). A lot of rain, maybe a thunderstorm (3 and 4 pH possible) coupled with low KH and you could get a pH crash and then pH swings.

I wouldn't be feeding the fish with ammonium present and at what I assume are low water temps (guessing).

I'll pop just one more thing in your ear if I might...at a pH below 6.5 Nitrosomonas bacteria (ammonia converters) don't reproduce. They also require a carbon source normally measured in KH. I can't predict the future but it seems like you could be in a bit of pickle. The only way you'll be able to control ammonia, as water temps increase and if pH stays below 6.5, is with water changes. That's a tough road imo. For you and the fish.

 

[Waterbug]

I would also love to add a few decent sized Koi. Would I be creating any new issues introducing more fish at this stage?

More fish = more ammonia. By that one pH test it's possible your pond won't be able to convert ammonia, or convert it fast enough.

I need to point out that a single pH reading isn't really super useful. You could test the water tomorrow and get a reading of 10. If you did get a much higher reading it would mean your pond is in the midsts of pH swings. That will hammer fish until something kills them, if swings doesn't kill them outright. I don't know if this is happening, but it might be worth a check.

 

[ntscott]

Thanks Waterbug. I was hoping you would chime in. They did not test KH or GH. I will get a test kit myself and be get more complete results. I feel like I need to do something now to raise PH and lower ammonia. My compulsive behavior has gotten me in trouble before though. Your thoughts?

 

[addy1]

Our well made my ponds ph very low, the well is 5.4-5.6. After killing some feeder test gold fish, poor things, I figured out our ph was horrible. I added baking soda the first summer, no fish, to get the ph up, but it kept going back down. Finally bought 3-4 50 lb bags of oyster shells, added them to the bog (great water flow) the pond and the stream. The ph has been stable ever since. Our well water is very very soft too.

Our pond hardness went from a reading in the 17 area to the 100 plus area. Our well reads as low as the test kits can read. like one drop. The hardness has stayed stable. I am sure the bog, the shells, the aging of the pond and the plants all have some input into the pond becoming more stable.

 

[ntscott]

I was at Petsmart today and picked up a few products that were on clearance. The first is Clearpond's Chloramine Buster. It states that it removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. The second is Clearpond's Beneficial Bacteria. The directions on the beneficial bacteria state that I need the ammonia level to be zero before I use it.

Waterbug- I read alot about Aeromonas Alley last night...kinda freaked me out. I am not going to add anything until I get some advice from the folks here. If my PH is too low, and I dont want to raise PH until zero ammonia...would it make sense to add Chloramine Buster now? Then when I have zero ammonia add Beneficial Bacteria? Then do something about PH?

Advice always welcomed!

 

[sissy]

you can also buy soy based spray foam and it comes in colors and safe enough to eat (not sure I want too ).Some hardware stores sell it now and i have been asking lowes and home depot district office ,about 7 to 8 dollars a can ,but it goes farther than regular spray foam does,I guess because it is soy based but not sure .It comes in blue, green ,purple,yellow,.red,.black .