Val and I are in total shock.

[Becky]

Anyone ... ???

I haven't issued a warning/ban, so if he wants to post there is nothing stopping him

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I haven't issued a warning/ban, so if he wants to post there is nothing stopping him

Only his pride I guess.

Thanks Becky.

 

[haver79]

Dave I have not been on the forum much lately. Just catching up. So sorry to hear about the loss of your koi.

 

[Dave 54]

Dave's first post says quote "we checked over two dead koi the latest to die and the first we saw yesterday , they look alive but each when you look at the gills they both show dead gill tissue in patches with red in between that looks normal too us "Unquote

I would say they suffered from breathing in too many toxic gases and not enough clean oxygen. I have seen this before in other ponds in the city, when all they used was a pond heater and a bubblier. Air lines freeze off as it is common and then fish suffocate from lack of fresh oxygen.

Page 2 top post by Dave54 quote "Turned the air down to the bubbler (even further than its normal winter setting) did another water change with filters and pond totally isolated apart from air flow that means the 4" bottom drain slide valve and also blocking 2" return pipe 2 ft down in the pond" unquote

In my opinion Dave may have turned down the bubblier too much and that may have lead to oxygen loss in the pond water, and thus causing his big fish to suffer damage on their lungs as he already stated from the first post.
People fear ice cold water way too much and he turned down the bubblier to avoid what he though would be super chilled water, and the hence the fish died of lack of oxygen...

In your opinion I turned down the bubbler to far eh ? I'm sorry @callingcolleen1 but with the air I have going to three of my four filters I could turn it off with no reduction to the O2 of the pond My thoughts where too much circulation of the water in the pond has allowed it to drop in temperature causing the deaths so I turned it down that's all .
As to experts on this website sadly he passed away and was called @Meyer Jordan I also believe that there is a certified member on our website too.
But the rest of us are just well informed ,( miss informed in some cases ) we are hobbyists .Some of us Senior Aquarist's
I may be very well read in the subject of fish illness but it takes only an trained eye to see where a person is going wrong plus a good ear in listening to what the persons says about the fishes problem, from there you can normally come up with an answer and the fish lives to swim another day .
I didn't have to post this thread I could have said nothing but there is a lesson to be learned from this for all of us .
Had I known this thread was going to cause some discord between various members I wouldn't have posted it (Lesson lost too all of us)!!!!!........
So people no more arguing it will scare off folks from asking for answers of the forum , which in our view is one of the best around...


Dave 54

 

[Dave 54]

Me neither @haver79 we took a sad year out had our PC give up the ghost, which we believe its a problem with our modem as we lost a hell of allot of data digital photo's couse work etc , My Mum's diagnoses pf liver cancer, my final visit too her , Mum dying, my back operation etc it became a bit of a year for both val and I, the final kick in the teeth for us was the fish dying !!!!.....

Dave 54

 

[Dave 54]

A thermometer on a rock and a length of string might be useful, to see if bubblers are causing deep water to chill.

If there is a high salt content, ice crystals may be choking gills if well below freezing air temps are stirring up the deep water

Like your thinking on this@adavisus

Dave 54

 

[callingcolleen1]

Well we cannot all be experts at everything as I know nothing about sick koi as my koi have never been sick cause water too cold here in Canada and that keeps my koi so healthy. But I can say when it comes to wintering koi in Ice Cold Running water, I have probably the most experience of anybody here. Nobody else has had koi as long as me in harsh winter conditions so I feel I can claim that title. Dave you know lots about other things about koi and I don't even argue about that as I admit I know nothing about sick koi or how to treat them. If ever my koi were sick I would trust you with that knowledge as you have much experience in that department. You should equally trust me when it comes to wintering koi as I have seen much and learned much after wintering koi in Canada for so long.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Myer Jordan was very knowledgeable, and Bess his sweet soul, but he had no first hand knowledge of wintering Koi in Ice Cold water either.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Me neither @haver79 we took a sad year out had our PC give up the ghost, which we believe its a problem with our modem as we lost a hell of allot of data digital photo's couse work etc , My Mum's diagnoses pf liver cancer, my final visit too her , Mum dying, my back operation etc it became a bit of a year for both val and I, the final kick in the teeth for us was the fish dying !!!!.....

Dave 54

It is very sad, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I thought of giving up when my hubby almost died of Cancer, then last fall my dad died and I had to handle all his funeral arrangements as other family members would not help. Last spring my mom got sick and lost half her "marbles" and that was the most stressfull thing I have ever went though. I cried and cried and still cry, but then I realized that at least she is still here and looking so darn sweet! So I count my blessings and look forward to what little time I have left with her. She might be a little confused these days but she is still so darn sweet and I can still hug and love her and look forward to the nice summer days together when I can sit outside her room that opens to a beautiful garden this summer. Going to plant her a pot of flowers for her table outside her door. Had to sell her condo so I could afford to keep her at Meadowland. i am spending all my inheritance on her, and as long as she is happy then I am happy.
You have to look on the bright side after every disaster that comes our way. You still have Val your sweet loving wife to lean on, you still have a beautiful pond and there will be other koi fish you can adopt and fall in love with. Wishing you well and please take care my friend!

 

[adavisus]

There is a diff between fish in climates which swing from warmish, to a prolonged winter freeze and settle in to a steady torpor with an empty gut, to the depths where a reliable 40f are maintained like clockwork all Winter

In more temperate climates you get erratic turnovers, where the isocline swings rapidly from day to day, made worse if well below freezing air is messing with deep water, to fish which are not ready for it

I'd switch the pumps off, if you see temps crashing below 40f in deep water

Water at 40f is heavier than water colder than that, which is trying to expand 10% with freezing, the deeper still water is more dense, you want to maintain that stratification, through the cold weather... like a blankie....

Now you might think, moving water is not freezing, forming crystals, however a fishes gills might disagree if they are being pelted by an air pump sending lots of well below freezing air temps, slush and crystals into deep water. Those gills will be sucking them up, choking, before they rise to join the glacier above them

 

[callingcolleen1]

There is a diff between fish in climates which swing from warmish, to a prolonged winter freeze and settle in to a steady torpor with an empty gut, to the depths where a reliable 40f are maintained like clockwork all Winter

In more temperate climates you get erratic turnovers, where the isocline swings rapidly from day to day, made worse if well below freezing air is messing with deep water, to fish which are not ready for it

I'd switch the pumps off, if you see temps crashing below 40f in deep water

Water at 40f is heavier than water colder than that, which is trying to expand 10% with freezing, the deeper still water is more dense, you want to maintain that stratification, through the cold weather... like a blankie....

Now you might think, moving water is not freezing, forming crystals, however a fishes gills might disagree if they are being pelted by an air pump sending lots of well below freezing air temps, slush and crystals into deep water. Those gills will be sucking them up, choking, before they rise to join the glacier above them

Water freezes and turns to ice ON THE TOP of the pond, not the bottom. No ice crystals at bottom of pond where fish are. No floating ice crystals at all as that would only happen if you have super chilled water, which cannot happen in our ponds or on planet earth. Please look up super chilled water on U tube. There are many science demonstrations on how to make super chilled water and you have to have absolutely pure water like Fiji Water or Distilled water. I can assure you 1000 percent that nobody has super chilled water in their ponds. When water falls below freezing it is now called ICE, which again forms at TOP of pond. Never Ever seen ice at bottom of pond. Fish in my pond are in Ice Cold water at just barely above freezing, for 27 very long years, never ever a dead or sick koi.

If you are using a bubblier they recommend you put it somewhere half way from the top of pond to the bottom of pond. That way the decay and rotting stuff won't get stirred up.
I have talked with a few of the people on my U Tube channel community, and the ones from the UK all have to constantly fight parasites and sickness all the time. That's why they know so much about things that make koi sick and they are constantly dealing with it. Meanwhile here in Ice Cold Canada, we never really see this and in all my years I have never seen a sick koi in my pond at all. BUT the difference is my koi in Canada have to winter in some of the worst winters on the planet and over in the UK the weather is too warm and hence the sickness and parasites. Then came a once in a very "blue moon" winter storm, and lots of them lost their koi, not just Dave, everywhere in the UK they are complaining of dead koi online. If their fish were already infested and sick, they would have trouble surviving the unexpected winter.
This is one of the guys that I have been talking about. When he looks at the fish under the microscope, his fish was just infested...

 

[callingcolleen1]

Here is a easy example ... If you take trout, that do well in ice cold water, and try to have them in a warm pond in the UK , they won't taste well and won't be healthy like if you pull them from straight out of the ice when Ice fishing. Same with KOI, they are also cold water fish and do best in very cool waters, summer and winter, and that is why you rarely see Koi ponds in tropical zones, they just do not do well there....

 

[adavisus]

Trout in a warm pond have a lot of muck in their guts and blood stream. It takes a week of fasting them to make them less stinky

Pump colder than freezing air into the bottom of a pond and crystals form, swirl into the water, besides crashing the thermocline of dense, and cold water. Fish gills suck those crystals into their gills, 24/7 and choke

Koi are warm water fish, hibridised over centuries in warm chinese and Japanese waters in Summer Erratic or prolonged cold freezing winters are difficult for them, unless they have large, deep, still waters

 

[Dave 54]

@adavisus Agreed koi are in acctual fact semi tropical in their origins also you have to remember @callingcolleen1 that Chinese and Japanese winters differ from our own in they are sharp but short unlike our own..
All of the koi dealerships are known for bringing in their koi for the winter months. .
There is one voice i know that shouts it out from the rafters every chance he can get "Peter Waddington" Author of Koi Kichi , koi2kishi and many other books .
He recommends we should indeed heat our koi if we are leaving them outdoors going so far as to callit cruel to leave them in unheated ponds .
For those of you who dont know , these two books are considered amongst the very best ever written on the subject of koi ..
As to Parasites my koi are free of them and are scraped religiously once every year,,
Besides that@callingcolleen1 at these temperatures parasites are still in the land of nod and as such are inactive ......
We do cut the feed down to winter levels using only pellets made for temperatures of 5c and slightly bellow only on a two week basis .


Dave 54

 

[MitchM]

...

Pump colder than freezing air into the bottom of a pond and crystals form, swirl into the water, besides crashing the thermocline of dense, and cold water. Fish gills suck those crystals into their gills, 24/7 and choke
...

That’s an interesting concept.

.