Underlayment / Overlayment?

[ATP]

While I know many use all kinds of things for underlayment, by my way of thinking the first things that go IN the pond are the last things that would come OUT. So if anything were to go wrong with underlayment or liner, I'd be stuck taking out everything else to do-over. I would never recommend trying to save money on those two things when building a pond, especially since both are relatively inexpensive all things considered.

I am not afraid of throwing a bit of money at this thing. I just feel like alot of what is marketed as "pond products" are in some cases way over priced. For example, the Aquascape products. You could easily spend 2K on their Snorkel, Centipede, and Aquablocks or easily build a similar set up for a fraction of that amount.

 

[combatwombat]

What width did you go with? looks like it may come in 3' and 6'.

Get 6’. Get 12’ if you can find it, but get at least 6’.

You could easily spend 2K on their Snorkel, Centipede, and Aquablocks or easily build a similar set up for a fraction of that amount.

I did exactly that. If I could do it over again, I would probably still DIY those things, but I’d be a lot less certain that it was a good use of time.

Time is money, and I have A LOT of time into my DIY solutions.

 

[brokensword]

I am not afraid of throwing a bit of money at this thing. I just feel like alot of what is marketed as "pond products" are in some cases way over priced. For example, the Aquascape products. You could easily spend 2K on their Snorkel, Centipede, and Aquablocks or easily build a similar set up for a fraction of that amount.

I didn't know re Aquascape, aquablox, or centipedes when I built my pond v1 and am glad I didn't; it would have stopped me. Waaaay to expensive for function, imo. I went the layered stone (8" first layer on bottom, 2" layer next, then 3/8 pea gravel last) way and no doubt it was cheaper as well as will not ever need 'fixing', can hold the weight of stone on top, and gives larger openings to allow the water to slow ala the aquablox. For centipede, I used 4" drain tile (not the typical 2" pvc) and for a snorkel, I did a diy version using the many empty buckets I had laying around. Amazing what you can do with the junk you collect over time!

So, yeah, my bog didn't cost an arm and a leg, will outlast the Aquascape version, is almost as good as the Aquascape version, and I'm still married.

 

[ATP]

I didn't know re Aquascape, aquablox, or centipedes when I built my pond v1 and am glad I didn't; it would have stopped me. Waaaay to expensive for function, imo. I went the layered stone (8" first layer on bottom, 2" layer next, then 3/8 pea gravel last) way and no doubt it was cheaper as well as will not ever need 'fixing', can hold the weight of stone on top, and gives larger openings to allow the water to slow ala the aquablox. For centipede, I used 4" drain tile (not the typical 2" pvc) and for a snorkel, I did a diy version using the many empty buckets I had laying around. Amazing what you can do with the junk you collect over time!

So, yeah, my bog didn't cost an arm and a leg, will outlast the Aquascape version, is almost as good as the Aquascape version, and I'm still married.

View attachment 146643

That's a creative design. Sounds like it takes aspects from the two most popular bog set up out there (deep vs shallow). I have plenty of 5 gallon buckets too and they would work as a clean out. How deep is the stone above the drainage tile? Is it 8" larger size, 2" medium then how deep is the pea gravel?

 

[brokensword]

That's a creative design. Sounds like it takes aspects from the two most popular bog set up out there (deep vs shallow). I have plenty of 5 gallon buckets too and they would work as a clean out. How deep is the stone above the drainage tile? Is it 8" larger size, 2" medium then how deep is the pea gravel?

I got this design from a pond pro, so no credit to me; the design is like this;

12" of 6-8" round boulders, then 12" of 2" round stone (cobblestone), then 12" of 3/8 pea gravel. All over 4" corrugated drain tile/tube which sits on the bottom in a trench, angles toward my diy stack/cleanout. I cut a hole in my 'bucket' snorkel/vault and the manifold(s) end inside. The buckets are empty cat litter pails, stacked inside one another (gives a lot of good structural stability to the sides) with handles cut off. The top bucket is an inch above the final pea gravel height with a top on it (in bog v1). The trench is angled to the lowest point where the bucket diy stack is placed. I have my 1-1/2" flex pvc going down into the bog and attaching with an adaptor to the 4" drain tubing.

My bog v1 didn't KNOW I had to carve the bog sides into a 'V' shape (and I told the pro his web page design should more clearly delineate this for anybody else following it!) but my bog v2 does. In bog v2, because I wanted to have my yellow flag iris there but contained, I used a garbage can for my v2 cleanout; it has 4" holes on the very bottom and sits at the lowest point, but is NOT attached to the 4" drain tubing. I figure any/all water if blasted from the top would still make it into the garbage can (because it's lowest point), complete with any debris. I'd advise to make sure this diy cleanout is HIGHER than the pea gravel IF YOU DON'T have a top on it (like I didn't in v2) as the water will be forced easily up and over the sides, bypassing the bog stone. I raised it 6" but it still wasn't high enough and I had to fill it with pea stone to stop easy exit. It'll be a minor pain to just dig out the pea gravel SHOULD I ever have to actually clean bog v2, but better than letting the water just rise and bypass. I should have gotten a garbage can that was taller and left 12" higher over the gravel but well, live and learn. Can do that on pond expansion #3!!!

 

[GBBUDD]

Thanks GBBUDD. What you have described is what I am planning on getting. What width did you go with? looks like it may come in 3' and 6'. Did you you the same underlayment as an overlayment throughout your entire pond or did you just place it under the big boulders.

I have a mix of granite, some shale, sand, even bedrock I believe. When our pool was installed they needed to blast to get it down to depth in the deep end. So there is no telling what i will find.

Amazing pond btw...I have spent some time on your build thread!

Thanks for the compliment it was a challenge but i did not use the kiss theory either. Here's a few photos of the bog builds that are not in the build .
shows the site of the bog build bottom of which is 6 plus feet deep.

This photo is the 24 inch culvert pipe. i used 24 inch because the price was right i took a chain saw to the inner ribs and opened a 6" slot about 2" wide and placed them at 4 and 8 o:clock down the horizontal pipe.

Like most I ordered washed river rock, it was disappointing. The only way to wash rock is on a screen in very very thin layers. i DUMPED TONS of water at the pilr in thr trailer though it looks like it did a lot it only scratched the surface.

I used 4000 lb mafia blocks to make the two outside walls.

The mafia blocks were very rough as they make these from left over or rejected concrete by the driver of the trucks they are not by any means concrete finishers they are often barely even close to square and as in my case had mountain dew and snicker leftovers showing in the concrete. i used mortar or concrete to infill the gaps and instead of grinding the sides smooth i just used a 1/8" roofing protection fiberglass and bitumen board on the outside of the wrap and then placed fabric over that. This was the only place i used woven fabric.

I should add that i DUG OUT THE CENTER OF THE BOG AND PITCHED IT TOWARD THE SNORKEL AND PILED SOILS ALONG THE SIDES TO CREATE AND ROUNDED BOTTOM SO DEBRIS WOULD END UP IN THE CENTIPEDE SNORKEL. WHICH WAS ALSO 24 INCH .LL i PILED 3 TO 4 AND LARGER ROCK ALL AROUND THE CULVERT PIPE . UP TO THE TOP OF THE PIPE WHERE AQUABLOCKS WERE THEN PLACED .
i ALSO PLACED THE INFEED PIPE FACING TOWARD THE WALL OF THE BOG SO THAT WAY THE FLOW WAS REDUCED AND NOT PUSHING THE WATER AROUND IN THE CULVERT AS WE WANT THAT AS STILL AS POSSIBLE

aQUABLOCKS WERE BURRIED IN 2 TO 3" ROCK FOR ABOUT 4 INCHES AND THE A FOOT OF 3/4" RIVER ROCK WAS PLACED ON TOP OF THAT I DID NOT USE 3/8" PEA STONE EXCLUSIVELY IT WAS 70% RIVER TO 30% PEA i also added a 2x12 raised edge all around the bog with the exception of the weir area. I took a 2x4 and screwed it to the top and bottom making similar to a i beam . screwed that to the mafia blocks and the upper 2x4 was to keep the 2x12 straight and has 4 years down the road.

After all that i desided to make a small gravel bog in case i ever needed to work on the main bog so i would have the needed bio filter to keep things running. talk about easy in comparison.oNE LAST NOTE WOULD BE TO LEAVE A MINIMUM OF 6 INCHES ON THE SIDES OF THE BOG FROM WATER LEVEL TO THE TOP OF CONTAINMENT IF NOT MORE ..

 

[GBBUDD]

I am not afraid of throwing a bit of money at this thing. I just feel like alot of what is marketed as "pond products" are in some cases way over priced. For example, the Aquascape products. You could easily spend 2K on their Snorkel, Centipede, and Aquablocks or easily build a similar set up for a fraction of that amount.

YOU ASKED ABOUT THE FABRIC . YES I USED 8 OZ they do make heavier non woven polyethylene fabrics IT was useed outside and i unfortunately only used it under the boulders and in select areas. after i realized and saw how sharp when a river rock splits or pea stone . If i had to do it again i would definitely do a full layer of fabric inside and out. Taping the layers together before you pull in the liner can save alot of trouble . No tape inside unless you pull it off before all the rock is installed. though i doubt it would do all that much harm. fish in the wild deal with oils antifreeze etc. in the water how bad can a couple pieces of duct tape be

 

[ATP]

Thanks for the compliment it was a challenge but i did not use the kiss theory either. Here's a few photos of the bog builds that are not in the build .
shows the site of the bog build bottom of which is 6 plus feet deep. View attachment 146663
View attachment 146665

This photo is the 24 inch culvert pipe. i used 24 inch because the price was right i took a chain saw to the inner ribs and opened a 6" slot about 2" wide and placed them at 4 and 8 o:clock down the horizontal pipe.View attachment 146664
Like most I ordered washed river rock, it was disappointing. The only way to wash rock is on a screen in very very thin layers. i DUMPED TONS of water at the pilr in thr trailer though it looks like it did a lot it only scratched the surface.View attachment 146666
I used 4000 lb mafia blocks to make the two outside walls.View attachment 146667The mafia blocks were very rough as they make these from left over or rejected concrete by the driver of the trucks they are not by any means concrete finishers they are often barely even close to square and as in my case had mountain dew and snicker leftovers showing in the concrete. i used mortar or concrete to infill the gaps and instead of grinding the sides smooth i just used a 1/8" roofing protection fiberglass and bitumen board on the outside of the wrap and then placed fabric over that. This was the only place i used woven fabric. View attachment 146668View attachment 146669

I should add that i DUG OUT THE CENTER OF THE BOG AND PITCHED IT TOWARD THE SNORKEL AND PILED SOILS ALONG THE SIDES TO CREATE AND ROUNDED BOTTOM SO DEBRIS WOULD END UP IN THE CENTIPEDE SNORKEL. WHICH WAS ALSO 24 INCH .LL i PILED 3 TO 4 AND LARGER ROCK ALL AROUND THE CULVERT PIPE . UP TO THE TOP OF THE PIPE WHERE AQUABLOCKS WERE THEN PLACED .
i ALSO PLACED THE INFEED PIPE FACING TOWARD THE WALL OF THE BOG SO THAT WAY THE FLOW WAS REDUCED AND NOT PUSHING THE WATER AROUND IN THE CULVERT AS WE WANT THAT AS STILL AS POSSIBLE
View attachment 146670View attachment 146671View attachment 146672aQUABLOCKS WERE BURRIED IN 2 TO 3" ROCK FOR ABOUT 4 INCHES AND THE A FOOT OF 3/4" RIVER ROCK WAS PLACED ON TOP OF THAT I DID NOT USE 3/8" PEA STONE EXCLUSIVELY IT WAS 70% RIVER TO 30% PEA i also added a 2x12 raised edge all around the bog with the exception of the weir area. I took a 2x4 and screwed it to the top and bottom making similar to a i beam . screwed that to the mafia blocks and the upper 2x4 was to keep the 2x12 straight and has 4 years down the road. View attachment 146673

After all that i desided to make a small gravel bog in case i ever needed to work on the main bog so i would have the needed bio filter to keep things running. talk about easy in comparison.oNE LAST NOTE WOULD BE TO LEAVE A MINIMUM OF 6 INCHES ON THE SIDES OF THE BOG FROM WATER LEVEL TO THE TOP OF CONTAINMENT IF NOT MORE ..View attachment 146674View attachment 146675View attachment 146676View attachment 146677

Thanks for all the detail! As of now I am leaning toward the shallow bog but have not fully decided yet. As of now pond will be 15x15 and 3’ deep at its deepest. Ultimately, it may depend on whether or not I have an excavator for the digging. The deeper bog is a pond in itself when you factor in the digging required.

 

[GBBUDD]

I prefer equipment over a shovel i would still be digging if i did it by hand

 

[combatwombat]

Fun to see these detailed build photos, @GBBUDD. Didn't know you put lumber around the perimeter of your bog. What was the purpose of that?

 

[GBBUDD]

Much easier to dress up in a nut shell. And another layer of mafia blocks would have started to look very over bearing from the lower back yard. So I built that 15 inch tall pressure treated extension. This leaves a nice shelf where I have boulders sitting atop the 3 foot wide mafia blocks. So on two sides you can see the boulders sitting atop the mafia blocks giving me a 2 foot wide at minimal walk way around the bog. This can be seen in the beginning of the video on page 51 at the top. There you can see where there is a 6 foot drop at it's tallest. I covered the mafia blocks in needle punched fabric and letting creeping jenny take root hoping it will cascade down the 6 foot wall. That planting is only a year old we will see what it looks like this year.

 

[Lisak1]

Aquascape products are expensive - much more so than when we built our pond. But what isn't ten years later?

I give them all the credit for bringing the bog/rainwater retention concept to the DIY market. They hold nothing back in explaining how and why they do things. For those who are into build it yourself, they share all the how's and why's for free.

 

[ATP]

Aquascape products are expensive - much more so than when we built our pond. But what isn't ten years later?

I give them all the credit for bringing the bog/rainwater retention concept to the DIY market. They hold nothing back in explaining how and why they do things. For those who are into build it yourself, they share all the how's and why's for free.

Not trying to single Aquascape out directly...I do think their Bog system is a little over the top price wise, especially when there are similar diy set ups out there that are cheaper. I will give the owner credit, he found a niche and built a nice litttle business off "the Aquascape Lifestyle"..lol

I am curious that you run yourr waterfall year round in zone 5. Guessing the pump is pretty deep? I would think the water would freeze up once it permeated up into the bog.

 

[ATP]

I prefer equipment over a shovel i would still be digging if i did it by hand

I am motivated now and ready to get out there and get started. I may be underestimating how long and how much work hand digging a 15x15x3'ft deep pond will be. In my mind I am thinking i can get it done in a few days. My brother in law lives two hours away and owns a small excavator, might be worth paying the gas money and having him drive it to my home.

 

[GBBUDD]

I am motivated now and ready to get out there and get started. I may be underestimating how long and how much work hand digging a 15x15x3'ft deep pond will be. In my mind I am thinking i can get it done in a few days. My brother in law lives two hours away and owns a small excavator, might be worth paying the gas money and having him drive it to my home.

it's between 300 and 400 bucks a day for a mini excavator my back is well worth the money. Plus you can make adjustments which there will be as it is your first build. But with an excavator YOU HAVE to remember as well a 15 foot reach is well more then a mini has and add three feet deep you have to dig from the center out of from all four sides. or start at one side and you work your way out . now if your doing rock around an in the pond that may require equipment as well . i used a all terrain fork truck for that. it all depends on your soils your site restrictions. there's more to it then just moving a joy stick.

I hear the motivated i broke ground the day after x mass. Now some may so ok so what. i'm in new england. not the best time of year to start excavating