TheFishGuys Goldfish Pond Build.

[BKHpondcritters]

I actually think that sounds pretty great, because with mortar there is no getting the stones back up for leaks or such, would waterfall foam inbeetween to help hold the gravel in place help, or just hinder?

When I imagine trying to carefully squirt waterfall foam into the spaces between the flagstone & then trying to press gravel into the top the only scenario my brain can come up with is a mess. I'm seeing hands & fingers covered in foamy gravel, or the foam expanding up out of the cracks & getting everywhere but where it's wanted. Maybe I'm just a messy builder, though.

I wouldn't worry about using a vacuum on the bottom - just a nice net to scoop up leaves & other large debris. The bottom IS going to get covered in a nice thin film & some algae, to a greater or lesser degree off & on during the year (more in late winter/early spring, less as the rest of the pond plants get going in summer) Fish & tadpoles will eat what's growing there too, which helps with the maintenance, but you have to remember it's a POND, not a hot tub. (my mantra when things don't look as nice as I'd like & need to gain some perspective. lol)

One other important thing to consider, though - The flat stones WILL be very slippery to walk on! Almost as bad as bare liner. If you're planning on wading around a lot, I'd skip the flagstone & just do gravel. I walk in my pond a lot & NEVER step on the large flat rock that covers the fish cave - it's too dangerous for an old lady who tends to break rather than bounce.

 

[TheFishGuy]

When I imagine trying to carefully squirt waterfall foam into the spaces between the flagstone & then trying to press gravel into the top the only scenario my brain can come up with is a mess. I'm seeing hands & fingers covered in foamy gravel, or the foam expanding up out of the cracks & getting everywhere but where it's wanted. Maybe I'm just a messy builder, though.

I wouldn't worry about using a vacuum on the bottom - just a nice net to scoop up leaves & other large debris. The bottom IS going to get covered in a nice thin film & some algae, to a greater or lesser degree off & on during the year (more in late winter/early spring, less as the rest of the pond plants get going in summer) Fish & tadpoles will eat what's growing there too, which helps with the maintenance, but you have to remember it's a POND, not a hot tub. (my mantra when things don't look as nice as I'd like & need to gain some perspective. lol)

One other important thing to consider, though - The flat stones WILL be very slippery to walk on! Almost as bad as bare liner. If you're planning on wading around a lot, I'd skip the flagstone & just do gravel. I walk in my pond a lot & NEVER step on the large flat rock that covers the fish cave - it's too dangerous for an old lady who tends to break rather than bounce.

I will definitely consider not vacuuming, just depends on how dirty it gets

I will be honest in saying I have never used waterfall foam, so when I start laying stones I will try it out and if it just goes terribly skip that part.

I dont think I will be wading around a lot, and as a young person who does tend to bounce rather than break ( I fell into the current pond from the waterfall the other day, no problems ) I will just be careful when I do get in there to do maintenance.

and you know, if I really do complete all of this, I would be pretty happy with myself considering all the advice above .........

 

[brokensword]

thanks for all the info!

I have decided to still do the bottom rocking in, but instead of mortar waterfall foam with a layer of gravel on top of it, this will hopefully reduce the hassle by a lot.



I honestly cant have any plant survive over the winter, it just get to cold and freezes to far down, I have 2 small koi that will go in before winter, but that will probably be it until spring.

I'd skip the foam as the gravel will stay between your flagstone, more or less; the foam isn't meant to be submerged nor is it especially waterproof. It's mainly to help direct water (on a water fall) where to go.


Seriously rethink making your pond DEEP ENOUGH so you can have hardy plants as well as a place the fish can survive the winter. As your fish grow, taking them in will be more stressful for the both of you. Think 30" or more and you'll be fine. Koi and goldfish can survive just fine. Find out how deep the ice can get in your area and make it 12" deeper to be sure. The water at the bottom will be warmer than at the top of your pond (not much but enough for survival. You have to go past 5' depth to get any thermal layering.).

I'll say it again; you only want to dig ONCE; dig deep as it's the easiest to do now, before you start, than after the pond is finished. The mantra for a ponder is; I've NEVER met anyone who didn't want a larger pond, so double the size you 'want' and you'll safeproof the whole pond idea for a few years, at least.

I admire your enthusiasm and determination; try to learn from 'our' mistakes and soon you'll be the one giving advice to others.

 

[TheFishGuy]

I'd skip the foam as the gravel will stay between your flagstone, more or less; the foam isn't meant to be submerged nor is it especially waterproof. It's mainly to help direct water (on a water fall) where to go.


Seriously rethink making your pond DEEP ENOUGH so you can have hardy plants as well as a place the fish can survive the winter. As your fish grow, taking them in will be more stressful for the both of you. Think 30" or more and you'll be fine. Koi and goldfish can survive just fine. Find out how deep the ice can get in your area and make it 12" deeper to be sure. The water at the bottom will be warmer than at the top of your pond (not much but enough for survival. You have to go past 5' depth to get any thermal layering.).

I'll say it again; you only want to dig ONCE; dig deep as it's the easiest to do now, before you start, than after the pond is finished. The mantra for a ponder is; I've NEVER met anyone who didn't want a larger pond, so double the size you 'want' and you'll safeproof the whole pond idea for a few years, at least.

I admire your enthusiasm and determination; try to learn from 'our' mistakes and soon you'll be the one giving advice to others.

I think after looking more into things, I will just stick with gravel not foam or anything, just a whole lot simpler and easier for me too

I wouldn't agree with you on the depth, but apparently my mom does, not only 30 inches but 36, so my pond will officially be 3 feet deep, no going back, why, cause that is the only way I am allowed to build it......

 

[TheFishGuy]

Update; construction has begun, I did not get as far as I would have liked to, but considering I started at 3:30 pm, and was only able to go till 5:00 I think it isnt bad:

 

[jgrandmont]

When I imagine trying to carefully squirt waterfall foam into the spaces between the flagstone & then trying to press gravel into the top the only scenario my brain can come up with is a mess. I'm seeing hands & fingers covered in foamy gravel, or the foam expanding up out of the cracks & getting everywhere but where it's wanted. Maybe I'm just a messy builder, though.

Yup. I can also attest to foam work being messy based on my recent build. I would highly recommend that you use some type of disposable gloves if doing a lot of foam work. It's very difficult to remove from human skin, even if using some type of solvent. Basically, you have to let it wear off.

 

[GBBUDD]

Before you get to crazy with the shovel and depth you need to think about your rock that your going to use. The absolute biggest part of digging a pond that is left out is to dig your shelves to the size of your borders. Not the other way around. If using large boulders steeper backs to the shelves can be made and have the rubber and liner pulled back and backfill to the boulders. Now i know thats not the direction your heading . But I do believe you will want to have a good slope to the back of the shelves. you may even want to create a little pocket to the shelf toward the vertical where your first row of rock will sit in As it has something to hold the rock in place. If you are using basketball or baseball sized rock.
Save mom and dads money as any rock underwater will look just like its neighbor as the entire pond will get covered in a peach fuzz of algae. This is the good stuff to get to. Where there's no algae growing thats not a benefit to the pond.
As far as your stone floor yes under optimum conditions you can see your bottom as i can in my pond , but colors are all the same 'peach fuzz'
To do as your thinking youll need a minimum of 2" but I'd rather see 4" of sand placed below you flagstone. As the more impact there us to the stone tge more the sand will shift and weaken. Thus my recommendation of 4 inches of sand below.
Patience paitence and more paitence is a ponds best friend. I will admitt i finished my dig and install by July. The first year the latter in the year the less balanced your pond will be for the winter months. If you do have a strong winter where you are.
At 12 a rock thats big and heavy will be childs play at 16. Take my word for it. Look at 8 to 12.
So while I admire your drive at 12 like Lisa said you have not even begun to experience what's to come. But I do see that your not lazy, you have goals and your all over it Good for you young man.
But if you are digging and you have not answered how or what your doing to the bottom or how deep and at the depth how many shelves you'll make. i would suggest you sit down and draw it out ,spell it out and get back to the group for some more input. Location of skimmers falls shape and depths can all be crucial in design and care. Once you remove material in digging basically you can only go bigger to get a reduce.
. I have seen your posts and options. And often they are spot on and better then some of the adult opinions. Theres an expression measure twice cut once. Well in this case plan twice dig once.
Good luck

 

[TheFishGuy]

Before you get to crazy with the shovel and depth you need to think about your rock that your going to use. The absolute biggest part of digging a pond that is left out is to dig your shelves to the size of your borders. Not the other way around. If using large boulders steeper backs to the shelves can be made and have the rubber and liner pulled back and backfill to the boulders. Now i know thats not the direction your heading . But I do believe you will want to have a good slope to the back of the shelves. you may even want to create a little pocket to the shelf toward the vertical where your first row of rock will sit in As it has something to hold the rock in place. If you are using basketball or baseball sized rock.
Save mom and dads money as any rock underwater will look just like its neighbor as the entire pond will get covered in a peach fuzz of algae. This is the good stuff to get to. Where there's no algae growing thats not a benefit to the pond.
As far as your stone floor yes under optimum conditions you can see your bottom as i can in my pond , but colors are all the same 'peach fuzz'
To do as your thinking youll need a minimum of 2" but I'd rather see 4" of sand placed below you flagstone. As the more impact there us to the stone tge more the sand will shift and weaken. Thus my recommendation of 4 inches of sand below.
Patience paitence and more paitence is a ponds best friend. I will admitt i finished my dig and install by July. The first year the latter in the year the less balanced your pond will be for the winter months. If you do have a strong winter where you are.
At 12 a rock thats big and heavy will be childs play at 16. Take my word for it. Look at 8 to 12.
So while I admire your drive at 12 like Lisa said you have not even begun to experience what's to come. But I do see that your not lazy, you have goals and your all over it Good for you young man.
But if you are digging and you have not answered how or what your doing to the bottom or how deep and at the depth how many shelves you'll make. i would suggest you sit down and draw it out ,spell it out and get back to the group for some more input. Location of skimmers falls shape and depths can all be crucial in design and care. Once you remove material in digging basically you can only go bigger to get a reduce.
. I have seen your posts and options. And often they are spot on and better then some of the adult opinions. Theres an expression measure twice cut once. Well in this case plan twice dig once.
Good luck

Thank you for all the advice, I definitely do believe I will be able to see the bottom, as I am very well able to with my current one, do you think just doing flagstone for example the edges of the shelves to hold in pea gravel would save time and money?

I will most definitely do some amount of sand or such under the flagstone for level, and yes we do get fairly strong winters, zone 4a.

The pond will be 3ft deep, as seen in other parts of this discussion, with minimal 1ft shelf, just about a foot in some spots and none in others, with the majority being 2ft, and a fairly small 3ft section, mostly for overwintering, I do have it all drawn out, just on the ground with marking paint.

The falls will sit where they do now, with a revision later, but skimmer and the actual falls will stay in the same place, and because this will only benefit about half of the pond, there will be a bog filter for the other side, that will look like a beach area, just with plants plants plants.

 

[GBBUDD]

Thank you for all the advice, I definitely do believe I will be able to see the bottom, as I am very well able to with my current one, do you think just doing flagstone for example the edges of the shelves to hold in pea gravel would save time and money?
In a "swim " pond no its not a great idea because flag stone is not very thick. You seem to love your flag stone you will want to protect your epdm where ever the edges of the flag stone get close to the liner. And it has no weight to hold back gravel and or pea stone. If you put it at enough of and angle and lock it in with foam. So long as the foam is protected from the sun I believe though unsure it may hold the flag stone for many a year. But others here have said it just falls apart regardless. I will find out in time because that's close to what I did on my expansion to the pond. Its all in the blog below.


I will most definitely do some amount of sand or such under the flagstone for level, and yes we do get fairly strong winters, zone 4a.
If you purchase heavier underlayment you can get away with less sand and depth to dig.

The pond will be 3ft deep, as seen in other parts of this discussion, with minimal 1ft shelf, just about a foot in some spots and none in others, with the majority being 2ft, and a fairly small 3ft section, mostly for overwintering, I do have it all drawn out, just on the ground with marking paint.

The falls will sit where they do now, with a revision later, but skimmer and the actual falls will stay in the same place, and because this will only benefit about half of the pond, there will be a bog filter for the other side, that will look like a beach area, just with plants plants plants.

Wish you luck.

 

[Lisak1]

Having never done this myself I'm just imagining what the end result would be, but the idea of 4" of sand under flagstone at the bottom of a pond worries me. I'd be concerned about what might build up in that sand over time. Much the same that you hear when people worry about a gravel bottom, except in this case you will have sand that's trapped under flagstone and just collecting and collecting and collecting muck over time. Again - maybe I'm over thinking this, but that's something I would really think about.

 

[Lisak1]

Check out this channel. They built a swim pond with a flagstone bottom.

 

[GBBUDD]

If you watch the latestes pro builds and using huge boulders they have moved away from fabric and have gone to several inches of sand or stone.. again not being a long term keeper I have seen over and over way overgrown ponds with clear water and feet of muck. I dont belive muck is a negative to a pond but more another carateristic to the ecology like Brian has said he has not cleaned out his pond in over ten years. And sand being as dance as it is I doubt any serios amounts of contaminants can work its way in to any large amount.

 

[Jhn]

Have about 3” of fine grain sand in the shelves, planting beds in the shallow portion of my pond. In 10-11 years haven’t had anything build up in it. As Gbbudd suggested, the fine grains of sand really prevent the larger decaying plant debris/mulm from working its way down into it. I ran my hand through it this summer nothing but sand in there. The fine sand grains also provide a larger surface area for bacteria to populate more so than the larger pea gravel.

It was pretty much an experiment on my part with the sand, applying some methods used in the setup of reef tanks. Now I will say the sand isn’t in the deepest portion of my pond, where detritus would tend to collect. it pretty much has stayed where I put it even with koi in the pond rooting through it.

 

[Lisak1]

I'm sure you guys are right - just my brain thinking through the situation. I will say though I've seen Brian's pond. He doesn't "clean" it, but it's pristine. Jets and aeration and water flow that you won't see in a natural pond.

The biggest difference I would see between a natural pond with feet of muck and a liner pond with a bottom lined with muck is, well, the liner. The natural pond has the benefit of nature on it's side, both above and below that muck. The interaction with the earth under all that muck can happen in the natural pond. The liner stops that from happening in a man made pond. Nature terminates at the liner.

 

[TheFishGuy]

Check out this channel. They built a swim pond with a flagstone bottom.

I did see like a life update from them a few months ago, and I remember that pond! never knew it had a flagstone bottom!


for the rest of all this, this thread be movin fast! I think when the time comes, I will see how sharp/unlevel the stones I have are, and if they are pretty flat, just only go with a small 1 inch or so of sand, but if they are very jagged possibly o with 3 inches or so.