The usefulness (or uslessness)of a test kit

crsublette

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I, at least, produced a source.And there are others out there.

@Meyer Jordan , yep, and that means you know more than they do !! Just cause you could produce a source, to match what you think is correct...

...and I obviously can't just get them on here to tell ya otherwise and ya probably would still not believe them...

Kudos! (y)

I guess we will just leave it at that... (y)
 

crsublette

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...and yes... from observing aquaponic systems... I HAVE witnessed nitrite accumulation, detectable by test kits, in MBBRs whenever the entire water column in the MBBR was actually at least 4ppm DO... yet, Meyer, ya say this is not possible cause your study says so... or I guess I am just a big fat liar...

... amazing how much of a crutch "studies" have prevented people to think after actually observing...

...expect any future request for study citations to be nill... even if I am aware of some... since.. what apparently matters more is the agenda...
 

Meyer Jordan

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...and yes... from observing aquaponic systems... I HAVE witnessed nitrite accumulation, detectable by test kits, in MBBRs whenever the entire water column in the MBBR was actually at least 4ppm DO... yet, Meyer, ya say this is not possible cause your study says so... or I guess I am just a big fat liar...

... amazing how much of a crutch "studies" have prevented people to think after actually observing...

...expect any future request for study citations to be nill... even if I am aware of some... since.. what apparently matters more is the agenda...

What were all of the water parameters and physical conditions during these observations? Scientific research documents all of these; anecdotal observations do not.
 

crsublette

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What were all of the water parameters and physical conditions during these observations? Scientific research documents all of these; anecdotal observations do not.

Reading from a facebook secret aquaponic group thread... of one example this happening... Water parameters and physical conditions typical of a good tilapia system. DO throughout the system average at around 6.0ppm, DO out from RFS 5.3ppm, DO in MBBR 6.5ppm... this is not a virgin system, has been running for a while... Nitrites started to appear once small areas of media stopped properly churning, but media was churning in other areas... air flow rate remained constant... the DO remained 5.7 in the MBBR... yet Nitrites grew to 0.5ppm "system wide" and was continually growing....increased water circulation in the MBBR... Nitrites very quickly dissappeared...

In scenarios like this... even though, water column DO constantly remained at a proper range... The increased nitrites was always fixed after increasing water circulation...

"Dead zones" can appear just the same in any pond as well... just like what happened in the MBBR.... water circulation is simply important for water systems for many reasons, one being to prevent an increase in Nitrites, if it should ever occur due to "unforeseen circumstances".


According to your conclusion from that study ya referenced, this accumulation of nitrites in the fish system should not have even occurred... since low DO was not experienced "system wide"...

No, but for the entire water column to be affected and high Nitrite levels to be detected by a test kit, this small window of extremely low DO would need to be pond wide.

...and by the way... I never mentioned anything about having "high Nitrite levels" as compared to the quite high levels depicted in that study...
 
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crsublette

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The only advantage an "eco" pond would have... is an increased buffer lessening the impact of these occurrences due to diversity of life in the pond...

...but this does not mean water circulation is of little relevance when Nitrites begin to increase...


if a pond is quite large so to be not affordable to get a bigger pump for better water circulation... then air pump/diffusers work quite well at getting the water to circulate.


If Nitrites every should increase in a water system... then increasing water circulation is one of the best things to do along with maybe some other things as well as addressing the problem's source...
 
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Meyer Jordan

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Reading from a facebook secret aquaponic group thread... of one example this happening... Water parameters and physical conditions typical of a good tilapia system. DO throughout the system average at around 6.0ppm, DO out from RFS 5.3ppm, DO in MBBR 6.5ppm... this is not a virgin system, has been running for a while... Nitrites started to appear once small areas of media stopped properly churning, but media was churning in other areas... air flow rate remained constant... the DO remained 5.7 in the MBBR... yet Nitrites grew to 0.5ppm "system wide" and was continually growing....increased water circulation in the MBBR... Nitrites very quickly dissappeared...

In scenarios like this... even though, water column DO constantly remained at a proper range... The increased nitrites was always fixed after increasing water circulation...

"Dead zones" can appear just the same in any pond as well... just like what happened in the MBBR.... water circulation is simply important for water systems for many reasons, one being to prevent an increase in Nitrites, if it should ever occur due to "unforeseen circumstances".


According to your conclusion from that study ya referenced, this accumulation of nitrites in the fish system should not have even occurred... since low DO was not experienced "system wide"...



...and by the way... I never mentioned anything about having "high Nitrite levels" as compared to the quite high levels depicted in that study...

This is an entirely different scenario than your original statement--
"if Nitrites pop up, then this is the result of lacking oxygen in the water"

Let's talk about this new scenario but first let me clarify that, to me, high and toxic levels are one and the same when discussing pollutants.
It still seems to me that the problem as described was due to faulty performance (and maybe poor design, if DIY) of a floating bed biofilter coupled to a system that may have limited total SSA. to fish biomass ratio. Knowing the conversion abilities of Nitrobacter and Nitrospira, their growth must have been retarded, restricted or limited in some way.
What was the original flow rate for this system? and the adjusted flow rate? What was the water temperature?
Additionally many floating bed biofilters that I am familiar with utilize an aerator to minimize clumping.

Bottom line: Any Nitrite (which would be a limited amount) resulting from dead zones within a biofilter should be readily oxidized (reduced) by the NOB that colonize all of the other submerged surfaces. The 'dead zones' are common in pond biofilters that utilize Lava rock yet Nitrite is rarely a problem once a pond is established. These 'dead zones' are, in fact, desired, to a point, as being a location for dentrification within the biofilter.
I believe that you are stating the facts as you have found them, I just do not believe that you have had access to all of the facts. This is the reporting source's fault, not yours.
 
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crsublette

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@Meyer Jordan ,

You are correct in that sentence... I should've been more precise in my language. My apologies.

I agree with ya in that, in a healthy pond, nitrite spikes shouldn't occur, eventhough "deadspots" are inevitable.

Fact is... if Nitrites were to occur...increasing water circulation actually does help with addressing Nitrite issues.

In that particular scenario I was talking about... Poor water circulation/agitation in MBBR was the problem... if it were a microbial retardent or lack of SSA or poor design or unbalanced biomass calculations... then something else would have been done...
 

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"Nitrite is an intermediate product in the process of nitrification of ammonia to nitrate. Although it is usually converted to nitrate as quickly as it is produced, lack of biological oxidation of the nitrite will result in elevated nitrite levels that can be toxic to the fish. Nitrite is constantly produced as the intermediary step between ammonia and nitrate. High levels of nitrite are also indicative of biofilter impending failure and should always be addressed."

Biofiltration‐Nitrification Design Overview
James M. Ebeling, Ph.D.
 

crsublette

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Yep, and that was why water circulation/agitation was increased in that MBBR...cause the biofilter was obviously failing... and it did fix the problem...


And sorry... I don't have any study citations to help validate this...
 

crsublette

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I agree with ya in that, in a healthy pond, nitrite spikes shouldn't occur, eventhough "deadspots" are inevitable.

Fact is... if Nitrites were to occur...increasing water circulation actually does help with addressing Nitrite issues.

Quick addendum...

These two paragraphs are written due to my observations...

...sorry, I don't have any study citations to validate them...
 

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Yes, increased circulation helped in that instance by overcoming the flaw in the MBBR. but the statement that increased circulation reduces Nitrite levels is quite stretch.
 

crsublette

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...increased circulation reduces Nitrite levels....

Water recirculation definitely helps to bolster the microbiological activity...

...which then helps to not only reduce Nitrite but also ammonia...

Would increased water circulation entirely remove any residual of ammonia and nitrite? Of course NOT...

...but definitely helps... (y)
 

crsublette

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Yes, increased circulation helped in that instance by overcoming the flaw in the MBBR....

...Correct, lack of circulation was the flaw in the MBBR previously talked about...


...it wasn't SSA creating the flaw... cause if it was, then SSA would have been increased so to fix the problem... except this wasn't necessary...

... "retardants" wasn't the flaw... cause if it was, then increased circulation would not have made any difference...

...Hydraulic Rentention Time in the MBBR wasn't the flaw... cause if it was, then change of input/output flow rate... not circulation... would have been the fix...

...Faulty design wasn't the flaw... cause if it was... then an increased circulation would not have changed the faulty design...
 

crsublette

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Improved water mixing was what fixed that particular MBBR scenario.


Increased water circulation promotes improved water mixing....

Improved water mixing allows the pollutants to move where they need to move so to get "cleaned"...

Generally, in higher organic systems, mixing (aided by water circulation) becomes more important...


...lack of proper water mixing allows "poor water quality zones" to be created... called "irrotational zones".. These zones can be seen, due to the settled debris piles, around big rocks or jutted out corners/sections of a pond...

...this even happens in shallow systems as well as high fish density aquaculture tanks... and the fish movements don't always force these zones to get properly mixed...

"Irrotational zones" (not talking about stratification) have lower water velocities which prevents proper mixing, this zone has poorer water quality (including reduced oxygen), and creates a dormant environment to allow for significant amount of organics to settle and collect.

...too much force from water jets and suctions can also aid in the creation of "irrotational zones"...


A major reason there are so many fish kills from ammonia or carbon dioxide or lack of oxygen after deep winter freezes... is due to a lack of proper water mixing... even though they still may have a hole in the ice... since the water mixing helps to reduce the ammonia, carbon dioxide, and equalizes the oxygen.


This is why always important to keep the water moving... whether by pump or aeration...


The lack of proper water mixing also occurs in Lakes and mud ponds as well... in Lakes and mud ponds, the water mixing is so poor that the "irrotational zones" turn into stratification layers... which is good for fish in a Lake until organic pollutants and carbon dioxide start to significantly build up in these layers creating reduced oxygen and other problems....

...this is why small Lakes and mud ponds often utilize aeration devices...

...whether it is large fountains or actual air diffusers or a machine driven (or tractor PTO driven) paddle aerator.


LATE EDIT :::

Thought I would mention really quick...

I have found in my small pond... proper mixing is much more difficult to manage...

...cause... in a small pond like mine (an oval design with a large island in middle), the increased water mixing in the pond easily disturbs the water's surface area thus disturbing proper functioning of my Skimmer device...

So... I had to increase the "mixing mechanisms" up into many more, smaller outlets (having 15 instead of just 6) in the pond and significantly increased the pond turnover rate per hour (to 5x).. and I have a primary and secondary suction for the pump... secondary suction with a pile of 1~1.5 inch river rock over the pump's suction so to "disperse" the suction (rather than focused in one particular area) and primary suction located where the submserible pump is placed (in an irrigation box in the pond).

I still have some irrotational zones, but not as many nor as big of irrotational zones as I had before.

I have come to the conclusion that... after all of my efforts... would have been better to construct the pond design like a large stream, rather than in a rugged shape... otherwise, the only way I think to truly remove all irrotational zones is by having a properly constructed concrete koi pond (which is basically a swimming pool) or an aquaculture circular tank and I don't like the aesthetics of either of those two... so I'll be happy with what I have... :)
 
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crsublette

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Water recirculation definitely helps to bolster the microbiological activity...

Before this statement gets picked to pieces as well...

...to clarify...

..."bolster" is in the context of giving the food, sooner rather than later, that the microbiological activity feed on so to "clean"... sooner rather than later...


Sure, eventually, with very low or zero water mixing, the microbes will eventually receive some of these pollutants to "clean"... I did not suggest this would not eventually happen without water mixing..
 
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