The Perfect Koi Pond- DIY

[sissy]

I still remember my dad going over to falling waters to help restore the landscaping and I went with him one of the times and was just 12 years old and was totally in awe at the house .Frank has been my fav. builder since and when I went out to Cali. I visited one of his houses there and they were restoring that one at the time and that was over 20 years ago .I love craftsman houses .My dad spent weeks up there to help out .I don't know of any perfect pond because it seems we are always tweaking something

 

[Waterbug]

Perhaps you don't have experience posting in public forums. The deal is everyone is entitled to their opinion and each person can choose to post those opinions or not. When posted your opinion is in a public forum and other people are free to post their opinion and discuss all posted opinions. If you don't want to discuss your opinions, explain them or even defend them, well, that speaks for itself. It doesn't have to be a flame war but at least some follow up is to be expected.

Most forums that only have people posting "good job", "you're great", "no, you're great" don't last very long because they're kind of boring.

If you don't want anyone to comment on your opinion then your own web page is a good choice. That's what I do sometimes.

Here there is a section called "Pond Showcase" where other people are not allowed to post at all. So you could post examples of your ponds there and your opinions and not have to read what other people think. Personally I'd like to view some of your builds in more detail and read your opinion. Even without debate I can always research things you have to say and decide for myself whether I should change my opinions.

You can also add members to your ignore list and you don't even have to see their responses ever on any subject.

If you're here just to post and drive traffic to your web site I suggest you research how to market in forums. There's a whole science to it and lots of info. It's pretty simple stuff but it is fast evolving.

So you have choices. Back to the discussion at hand...

Your opinion on liner vs concrete is one I've heard many times from people who install concrete ponds. The stuff about rodent damage, ponds sliding down hills, etc., is all very scary and a very useful tool for selling ponds. Liner pond sales dudes have their own equally impressive reasons for why their pond is the only logical choice.

In a public forum these sales techniques don't generally fly as well because most people here already know something about ponds and many are almost 100% DIY. In general many pond forums are openly hostile to contractor type ponds like Aquascape. Contractors I think would be highly welcomed here if they just wanted to chat, pictures, interesting stories and offer help in the context of requests for help. The standard contractor sales pitch, not as valued.

Different pond forums have very different ideas on what a pond is. Here it's more of a water garden pond focus, DIY, smaller, not too heavy into the Koi, very light fish loads and almost nothing on concrete ponds. Whereas a place like Koiphen is almost exclusively concrete ponds, Koi, and lots of contractors. It's the internet, a person can always find a place that will validate one's opinion if that's what you want. If you want to challenge you own opinion you only have to post in forums that are hard wired to reject that view. Very useful imo.

Personally I would be interested in a liner vs concrete debate. Most forums are hard wired for one or the other and so it's difficult to actually have any debate beyond a flame war. I don't mind my opinions being challenged and if shown to be wrong I'm only too happy to change and figure I'm the winner in that deal. My opinions on ponds have changed 120 degrees (have to leave room for more change in the future) over the years.

For example, I've heard the rodent damage scare before, it was very popular back 15 years ago but I haven't heard it much lately. I'd be happy to change my opinion if anyone can point to people posting this problem or any web sites showing the damage and discussing the issue. I've read probably better than 100,000 pond forum posts over the years in maybe a couple of dozen pond forums and I can't say I remember a single case of actual rodent damage to a liner. A much more common liner scare tactic is damage from roots because that at least is related to an actual problem of dried roots cut in the dig. The rodent myth just never really got traction.

So if this is just something you heard from someone once, or there's only a couple of a possible cases out of the thousands of ponds, well don't be surprised if I don't accept that as any kind of proof beyond it helping you to have sold ponds. And this business about "I've been doing it longer than you", or "I built ponds in a builder market than you", "my shovel is longer than your shovel"...not very convincing. Kind of the opposite effect imo. Posting links, or any thing that can be researched, is way more convincing (if true). I certainly know many contractors in many trades who are experts in a single function within the trade but don't know anything about anything else. Though they think they do.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Warm regards to Capewind, Waterbug and Murkywaters and to anyone else daring to comment on the "L word.">>

Hey I didn't mention the "L word".
But I will now.
My first pond was concrete, I thought it would be a better choice since I would with cement by trade, and had all the materials on hand, (except the plumbing). I didn't have any issues with it except when I wanted to make it bigger. Ripping out all that concrete and rebar and wire mesh would have been a real pain, so in the end I built an additional (liner) pond that flowed into the main pond. My current pond is uses a liner, although the pond is built inside a courtyard that is built on a concrete foundation walls and stucco (cement based) walls.
I can see using concrete for ponds in a some cases, but having worked with it for much of my life I know one undeniable fact, the larger a structure you build out of concrete, the more chance there is for it to crack. Large concrete floors areas and sidewalks all have control joints built into them because they know they will crack, and they use the control joints in hopes "control" where the cracking will occur. Still, it doesn't always work and they still often get cracking in places other than the control joints.
see those long waterfall/streams and first thing I'm wondering what do you do to control the cracking???
You can build large structure like pools that won't crack, but you need to have proper foundations that won't move and lots and lots of rebar to hold it all together, those long streams/waterfalls I doubt have foundations built under them, they seem to be built more like sidewalks, just laying on the surface. Some cracking seems inevitable. Of course even if you have a crack and a small leak, it's not the end of the world, with long waterfalls you are bound to lose a lot of water through evaporation, in fact you might lose more through evaporation then you could through a small crack, so you might not even notice it.

 

[DouglasHoover]

Apples to Apples Murky Waters-
What eventually will happen to a house of cards? If this was the topic of a forum thread, what are all the possible responses... it will fall, come apart, collapse, fall over etc etc, right? Did anyone thing to ask a question or two before so freely offering their opinion. For instance, what are the cards made of? How are they configured? How are they held together? Are they inclosed in something? So would any of those offered assumptions been correct or even relevant, if in fact the cards were made of aluminum and heliarced together in the shape of a geodesic dome and them sealed in a titanium box with 2” thick walls?

The founder of a well know pond liner and accessory company tells the story of a “concrete pond” located in the backyard of a house he bought. The pond was empty and he quickly discovered why and documented the reason with his camera. The “concrete pond” was riddled with cracks so he proceeded to remove it (“concrete pond”) with a pick and shovel, as documenting the process with photos. He was familiar with a rubber roofing material used to seal flat roof structures and decided to line a hole in the ground then filling it with water, instant pond! “I could sell this...”, he thought, so he did. The “liner messiah” was born. He published an article about his “leaky concrete pond” and the solution in a popular pond magazine.

(here goes Hoover bragging and boasting again)LOL I had already been building concrete ponds for over 5 years when I read this article. First thing I noticed from the photos, like many people, he obviously did not know the difference between mortar and concrete or rebar and chicken wire. The “leaky cracked concrete pond was constructed of mortar lain over the top of chicken wire placed on the dirt! To this day, his disciples spread the gospel of the “leaky concrete pond” and all repeat the mantra, “concrete cracks.”

I don't use the standard 5-6 sack concrete mix used in driveways and sidewalks (yes, which crack!) I use a a 7 sack mix, extra gravel and stealth fiber and this in shot into place under high pressure. (shotcrete) This does not crack when used with rebar 10” on center.

When I build a a stream longer than 22 feet, I incorporate expansion joints... A section of reinforced shotcrete with stealth fiber doesn't need a footing, on the contrary, it could be used as a bridge without arching it! Anyone who says this will crack is on crack. LOL
Another method which works great and is used on freeway bridge expansion joints: Delastic-LS™ Pourable Bridge Seals or
Advanced Epoxy Systems AES-350 Joint Sealant

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According to some liner advocates, they never should have built the Hoover out of concrete according to the Liner Messiah cause “concrete cracks”. LOL

My wife Alice and I are retired, we sold our home and business and are living in a 40ft motorhome on Social Security- when we get tired of this life style and buy another home (very small) I will build a liner pond in the back yard- true! I figure at my age, it will last just as long as I do. LOL If you can afford it, make it concrete (shotcrete) if not liners are great! Peace and joy, happy koi, doug

 

[sissy]

No what you mean I am retired bought a larger home and larger property and made work for myself .I love my dream home and don't look back but only look to the future .I never thought I would put in a pond but stupid me went by the koi farm in NC and next thing you know the pond fairy fell on me and darn it I left her get the best of me .I would not get koi again . :razz: oh well live and learn .

 

[DouglasHoover]

So tell me Water Bug, you say Garden Pond Forums is only for the DIY, no koi, no contractor, no selling your own ideas kinda person that just wants to talk about the sleepy little humble pond in their back yard? You don't think any one comes here with serious questions about serious projects that may possibly have a budget over $5000? Questions like: Liner or concrete?- Sump pump or centrifugal high efficiency pump with bottom anti-vortex suction drains?- Bio-falls or pressured, back flushing bio-filter? Concrete Bridge or wood?- UV light or not?- Pool skimmer with venturi valve or skimmer with sump pump? Mechanical toilet tank auto fill or an electronic one?

One thing is for sure, if they ask Concrete or liner they now won't leave with any questions.

Myths? Exaggerations? Contractor's sales pitch? Scary stories to sell ponds? "Rodent myths just really got traction." "It's the internet, a person can always find a place that will validate one's opinion if that's what you want. If you want to challenge you own opinion you only have to post in forums that are hard wired to reject that view."

​I'm not here to "get my opinion validated" how could a doctor get his opinion validated by a chiropractor? I'm here to offer my opinion based on my experience and knowledge and contrary to your implication, not trying to or needed anyone to validate them.

When I say rats chew liners, rats chew liners!

Water Bug: "I've read probably better than 100,000 pond forum posts over the years in maybe a couple of dozen pond forums and I can't say I remember a single case of actual rodent damage to a liner." (really 100,000?)

I have replace over 30 pond with damage from rats, gophers and ground squirrels... you want proof Water bug? You want a picture? How about a current one? The last job I did...

I apologize in advance for prefacing this statement with a couple of facts about Douglas C. Hoover, I'm not "bragging, "boasting or comparing the size of my shovel to yours" as you so eloquently put it. But if I truly have designed and built well over 2000 water features over 30 years, have had over 100 of my articles published, Platinum writer on Ezinearticles, had my own water feature published in better homes and garden magazine, honored with "Garden of The Year Award" on the front cover of San Diego Magazine ("Fire and Water In Clairemont") 242 thousand results when you Google my name "Douglas C. Hoover" and not one negative thing about me, I would say I have a little credibility and deserve some degree of respect for my opinion and not need it validated by anyone in any forum. imo

Even though I have retired I get several calls a month asking me to build them a waterfall- referrals, past clients, internet leads, friends etc.
Last year I has two requests I accepted, a Chiropractor with cancer and a frustrated gentleman begging me to help. He said he was on his second liner pond chewed by rats, that I was the only one on the internet that warned against it and had a solution to his problem- a reinforced concrete pond! Both of these people offered a place to park our 40ft motor home on their property and pug in. First the Chiropractor...

Here is an unsollicited testimonial on Thumbtack from the Chiropractor:

Dana Goodrich
Owner, Dana Goodrich, D.C.



Douglas Hoover designed and built a beautiful waterfall and koi pond for our back yard. He was creative, hardworking, easy to get along with and the pond came out beautiful.
We would definitely recommend him and hire him again!

My last Pond 2012 San Marcos, CA
This poor guy called me last year begging me to help him- he said I was the only one he could find warning about rodents and saw I recommended concrete. He explained how he had paid thousands for a liner pond only to have it loosing a foot of water a day. The came out looked and said he had gophers or ground squirrels burrowing behind the falls and that the liner warranty only covered factory defects not from gophers and left. Duwayne then called another liner guy that took the waterfall apart to discover unrepairable damage. He then paid him thousands more to rebuild it again- Less than two months before the leaks filled up the pond under the liner with it floating on the surface.

H begged me to help and said I could park my motor home in his yard. The pictures tell the rest of the story... so much for the rat myth IMO


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[capewind]

Doug, I am sure you have done a fantastic job in your career, but the issue remains that as a whole, you are being a bit unfair to liners. I mean no disrespect what so ever. Maybe they are not the best choice in your area, and clearly you have had your share of shadey contractors too. Personally, I want to know why the issue of the rodents hasnt been dealt with. After ponds, homes look like a great source of water to me. We have tons of issues with the swamp rats here. We have two choices, trap them, or kill them. My vote is to kill the little bastards as they multiply faster than rabbits. Whether it be your highly populated fast lane environment, my island lower population environment, or somewhere in the middle, as a whole, liners are no where near as bad as you make them out to be, Folks here ARE willing to learn their options, but due to your prior experiences with liners, you are coming across as concrete is the ONLY way to go, period. Remember, most things in life are not black and white, but shades of gray. Most folks here have liners as it was either what they could afford, or what they were able to work with themselves. Remember the pride you feel/felt when you knew you did a nice job? A lot of folks feel that way about their liners. Sure, some mistakes are made along the way, but isnt that part of the learning curve too? You have shown some beautiful work. I hope you stick around to share more of your knowledge. Regardless of the material a pond is lined with, there are still the worlds of filtrations, plantings, water quality etc to be discussed

 

[DouglasHoover]

Thanks for sharing!

 

[sissy]

gosh I live in a very rural area ,lots of rodents underground and above ground .So far my liner has been safe except for the new neighbors dog .is there really the perfect pond or the perfect way to build a pond .Gosh my pond budget was a piddly 300 dollars .Not perfect but I have healthy fish and love it and am proud what I have accomplished in 9 short years .i think every pond I see from tanks to what ever we are proud of ..I want a flag that says pond proud to fly over my little pond .I did it all by my little self .Fish haven't tried to run away from home .

 

[sissy]

I do remember rat poison says once they eat it they will seek out water .But could other burrowing animals that get hold of it also do the same .Maybe the people are causing there own problem ,rat poison

 

[DouglasHoover]

Cape wind, did you read my post to you about population- this last post gave me no indication that you did. One out of 4 projects the past 8 years was replacing liner ponds for very angry customs- how do you figure that is being unfair? I also mentioned that Barnstable Co. where you live has 225,000 pop. my county, San Diego county has 4,000,000 with 49 full time pond builders with a full 12 months out of the year excellent weather to build pond- there is a water feature in 1 out of 4-5 homes- Realtors in San Diego won't list a house with a liner pond unless the pull it out and fill the hole! That has nothing to do with "being a bit unfair..." I'm simply stating the facts about Liner ponds in San Diego- It's not about me, it is about liner ponds in San Diego! LOL There I'm done for good with this topic. :goodnight:

 

[capewind]

Yes Douglas, not only did I read your post, I responded to it. See post #12. I am not going to get into a tit for tat conversation about population numbers or where one can work more months out of the year. Your main complaints have been sleezy contractors and rodents, which by the way, I asked you in post #22 why the issues of the rodents were not being addressed, which you failed to answer. I am honestly neutral about concrete verses liner, and only point out why many choose liners over concrete. I dont know if you have become so hostile towards liners, because of these bad contractors or rodent problems, or if your general personality is to be close minded. I do not correspond well with folks with the "its my way or the highway" hot air approach. I like to look at ALL info and make informed choices. So on this note, I'll bow out of this conversation. Have a good night.

 

[DouglasHoover]

You have a goodnight also.

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My last Pond 2012 San Marcos, CA
This poor guy called me last year begging me to help him- he said I was the only one he could find warning about rodents and saw I recommended concrete. He explained how he had paid thousands for a liner pond only to have it loosing a foot of water a day. The came out looked and said he had gophers or ground squirrels burrowing behind the falls and that the liner warranty only covered factory defects not from gophers and left. Duwayne then called another liner guy that took the waterfall apart to discover unrepairable damage. He then paid him thousands more to rebuild it again- Less than two months before the leaks filled up the pond under the liner with it floating on the surface.

He begged me to help and said I could park my motor home in his yard. The pictures tell the rest of the story... so much for the rat myth IMO

 

[Waterbug]

Apples to Apples Murky Waters-
What eventually will happen to a house of cards? If this was the topic of a forum thread, what are all the possible responses... it will fall, come apart, collapse, fall over etc etc, right? Did anyone thing to ask a question or two before so freely offering their opinion.

This is a public forum, people are free to post whatever they like. Freely offering opinion at dinner parties is a faux pas, in a public forum it is a requirement. It is the entire purpose of public forums.

 

[Waterbug]

So tell me Water Bug, you say Garden Pond Forums is only for the DIY, no koi, no contractor, no selling your own ideas...

Nope, didn't say that. You're employing a straw man which I consider pointless and so that's as far as I got. Sorry, just don't have the time or inclination.