The Perfect Koi Pond- DIY

DouglasHoover

Douglas Hoover
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How To Build The Perfect Koi Pond- Liner or Concrete- DIY


Prior to retiring, after 30 years of designing, engineering and building well over 2000 water features, if there is one definite thing I have learned, it is that a water garden can be the most enjoyable investment you could ever make, or the biggest nightmare. A few years back I received a call from an angry water garden owner. What she began describing to me was anything but an ideal water garden experience.

She began by telling me the pond was leaking, and she needed to add water daily. Her pond was full of algae and smelled like dead fish. Besides the need to pull the sump pump out of the pond every three days to clean the algae and debris from its intake screen, her electric bill had almost doubled since she installed the pond. She continued, "The grand kids were climbing around on the waterfall and the rocks slid around, exposing the liner everywhere and it looked horrible."

When she complained to the contractor about the need to add water every couple of days, he came out and did something and it stopped losing water. She went on to explain that she told a friend her water bill was three times its normal cost and that she heard running water all the time, and thought it might be a stuck toilet tank float. The friend investigated and discovered the contractor had installed a mechanical water level controller to the pond. He had decided it would be far easier than finding and fixing the leak, apparently assuming that the client would never figure it out.

Then came the dreaded question she asked me: "Can you help me out?" My automatic response was, "How much did you spend on your pond and waterfall?" She choked out, "$6,500!" I then asked, did the contractor warn her of the negative aspects of a liner pond, such as dangers from gnawing rodents, tree root punctures, sharp rocks, and other such objects? Her response was, "No, not a thing."

I explained that I do not attempt patching or correcting other contractors' mistakes. Even if a leak was found, you could not be sure it was the only one unless the entire waterfall and pond were disassembled. She was very angry and wanted to know what recourse she had. I explained that dozen of my clients, in similar situations, used small claims court to recover their losses from unscrupulous contractors. All of them were successful in court, since none of their contractors had mentioned the various flaws associated with liner construction.

Follow these six suggestions for designing a trouble-free and long lasting water feature:

1. Research every aspect of water gardening before you start. You will rarely get unbiased information from pond liner advocates that sell pond liner kits and sump pumps. Most liner advocates malign concrete pond construction in order to promote their pond liners and equipment since it is more profitable, easier and quicker to install.

2. Find a qualified licensed contractor with insurance, bonding, workers comp and water garden construction experience.

3. Build the water garden, pond and waterfall using rebar and concrete. It will last for decades. The pond liner track record speaks for itself:

  • More than 37% of all waterfalls have serious structural damage within 3 years of construction.

  • 57% of homeowners say they are rather unsatisfied with the way their waterfall came out after the project was completed.

  • One in three waterfalls and ponds are leaking water within nine months of completion.

  • 63% of "do-it-yourselfers" say they wished they had the proper information from the "get go" or that they had hired someone.

4. Use an energy-efficient centrifugal pump. Sump pumps are not designed for continuous operation, only intermittent duty. In addition, they have limited warranties and use up to 60% more energy than centrifugal pumps. Install two anti-vortex suction drains in the bottom of the pond.

5. Install a back-flushable bead bio-filter which eliminates 90% of the pond maintenance and a UV sterilizer which kills pathogens and planktonic algae that turns water green.

6. Install an aquafill water level controller and you will not need to ever add water manually with a hose, taking a risk that you may some day start adding water, get distracted, walk away and forget it, causing an overflow plus risking the chance you may kill your fish from chlorine poisoning.

A water garden should not be considered a short term investment. Water gardens in most cases will bring more long term joy and pleasure than anything someone could spend money on. It is something that should last for decades. If it is built with concrete and rebar, it is built to last. Liner construction, however, does not last. Take it from a professional. If it is not worth doing right, then it is not worth doing at all. Google: Liner vs Concrete for more information on differences, between these to types of construction.

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3. Build the water garden, pond and waterfall using rebar and concrete. It will last for decades. The pond liner track record speaks for itself:

  • More than 37% of all waterfalls have serious structural damage within 3 years of construction.

  • 57% of homeowners say they are rather unsatisfied with the way their waterfall came out after the project was completed.

  • One in three waterfalls and ponds are leaking water within nine months of completion.

  • 63% of "do-it-yourselfers" say they wished they had the proper information from the "get go" or that they had hired someone.

Your work is absolutely beautiful, and concrete may in fact be the best investment on the long term, but cost prohibited for most. THAT said, I found most of what you listed in number 3 incorrect or at least greatly exagerated. I understand why you would be biased and lean towards concrete, but be fair to a well planned liner pond/waterfall. It is like saying the average person can not have a nice above ground pool with little problems. Sure gunite is better, but not in the average person's budget.
 

DouglasHoover

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Fair enough capewind, I would agree about the likely possibility of discouraging a newbee or anyone for that matter... If it is possible (don't know how) to edit this article I will! By the way, even though I'm very willing to edit out number three, those are not my figures! They come from a "Liner advocate that was talking about the majority of the newcomers to pond building as a living and make good money quick...

The quote was taken from his website 5 years ago- Wilder, with "24 hour pond building course". The last 10 year before retiring, 1 out of four projects was replacing defective liner ponds- bad layout, ugly job (a pile of loose rock) cheap pump and filter, installed wrong, bad seaming. Leaking around skimmer or drains, walls that caved in, pinched liner from rocks under liner with a boulder placed on top... eventually breaking through, no padding or proper rodent barrier- punctures from tree roots and even a Rhododendron plant.

These statistic may truely be hard to believe because unhappy clients don't call another liner installer if they had a bad experience, nor do they visit forums to compain, they call someone like me that has replaced dozens of defective pond and an expert witness in scores of law suites- all of which won their case.

The worst was a "licensed" contractor that added an autofill to the pond rather than find the reason the pond was losing water, 7 months later, their house was staring to slide into the canyon- Your right, Capewind, I'm biased, and for a very good reason! I just need to dial back my compassion a couple of notches. It is a fact, and I have already proved it, many times, that concrete ponds cost only 20% more than a liner pond!

Remember, every time I bid a project, I was biding against a liner guy! In 30 years, comparing apples to apples, I have never been under bid! Keep in mind, I use Sequence Pumps- Aqua Ultraviolet filters and UVs- no rocks on the bottom of any of my ponds collecting rotting fish poop and debris- I never needed to hide a liner! I filtered all 2000 + ponds using dual 8" anti-vortex drains and professional pool skimmers with Venturi valves, Never had a leak, never had a crack in a concrete shell, never had a murky or green pond! I learned the right way to do it 8 years before Wittstock started making a fortune with his rubber roofing material and teaching his liner disciples to malign the use of concrete! What did they use to build the Hoover Dam? LOL

How's that for a rant? LOL So tell me how do I edit an article? or do I need to deleat it and start over? Thanks so much for your input, I do not want to offend anyone, just a voice crying in the wilderness...LOL Warm Regards, Doug
 
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I think your estimates of customer satisfaction are reasonable. I don't know what the actual numbers are but I saw a lot of dissatisfaction when I was building ponds. I wasn't a regular builder, I'm a software programmer who just ran out of yard so had to build ponds in other people's yards. But most of what I did was clean ponds and trouble shoot problems. Just word of mouth. So what I saw was biased. If a friend of a friend told someone they were having pond trouble they'd get back to me. Mostly I only heard from unhappy people. But there sure were a lot.

I got out of it pretty fast because I found these ponds couldn't be fixed because the cause of the problem wasn't the pond, it was the owner. Didn't want to do any maintenance, spend any money and most importantly didn't want to learn anything. They wanted the pond fixed their way, but wanted me to do the work and be responsible for the failure. I'd just tell them I couldn't do the work and move on. Lot's of people just wanted pond filled in which I was happy to do.

The conclusion that the liner is the issue is not correct imo, it's the installer to some degree and more importantly it is the customers. There are a lot of people in the world who want 3 main features for their ponds, cheap, no maintenance and have to learn absolutely nothing. Surprise, surprise there are installers only too happy to fill that need.

I've seen some pretty crappy concrete ponds too. But when an installer screws up a $30K job unhappiest is expressed in the form of lawyers rather than just quiet frustration. A customer getting ready to spend $30k is much more likely to do some research and check references. Much more difficult for a poor concrete pond installer than a liner guy. And if you go down market further into DIY it gets even worst. No research at all, no idea how to maintain a pond, just dig a hole, lay a liner, fill with water, add fish and start fixing problems.

In my experience almost 100% of waterfalls in liner ponds leak, including the ones I built. For starters waterfalls on concrete ponds are much less common than in liner ponds. More importantly waterfalls for liner ponds and concrete ponds are almost always entirely different. A waterfall on a concrete pond almost always has a proper foundation which liner ponds should also have but rarely do. That's the builder's mistake, not the liner. A waterfall for a concrete pond is often the same type built for a swimming pool. It's not a very natural waterfall, all gaps between rocks are sealed and the water course is highly controlled. Liner ponds almost always try to have a more natural looking structure of stacked stone. Gaps between rocks may be sealed but held back out of sight as much as possible. You normally don't have the deep canyon water course you have with swimming pool waterfalls so a few leaves stuck here and there can cause a leak. It's a risky design choice but many people have no interest in having the artificial look of a swimming pool.

IMO liner ponds can be every bit as good as a concrete pond and for a lot less money. But the market has almost no interest in such a pond. The liner guys currently have the cheap end covered and the concrete guys have the higher end covered. And DIY people want to build their way and are not interested in standard building practices of any kind. The fun is in creating their own way. Disclourse: I'm in the DIY camp myself.

Here in Phoenix many installers, big outfits, use PVC liner. On a $5-10K pond and maybe only $100 more for EPDM and that's too much. People want cheap and then create this fantasy in their head that being dumb and cheap will get them a trouble free pond. Reality is only a few years away.
 

DouglasHoover

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Boy is that irritating! I left the page to upload a picture not realizing I would loose 30 minutes of typing with two fingers LOL Hard way to learn... it is now 1:30 AM- goodnight Waterbug-tomorrow
 
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DouglasHoover said:
Boy is that irritating! I left the page to upload a picture not realizing I would loose 30 minutes of typing with two fingers LOL Hard way to learn... it is now 1:30 AM- goodnight Waterbug-tomorrow
LOL don't you hate it when that happens.
 
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>

IF a concrete pond is only 20% more, either your labor rates were dirt cheap, or the liner installers in your area are really screwing people. We do masonary work too, just not with ponds. The pond hubby is doing next month, the client has a $5000 budget. Because we get SOO many referrals from this client via the commercial account, hubby has broken the costs down to the minimums and giving her a break on the labor (by half). She is giving him a free hand to do what he wants, and told her to expect it to run about $3500. The project will include relocation of existing fish/removal of existing pond (maybe 600-800 gallons), the purchase of a 15x20, 45 mil liner (about 1800-2000 gallon pond), small waterfall, filtration, roughly 8-9 tons of rock and a few basic landscape plants. Oh, and he is throwing in a few select grade young koi too that I've been growing out (after the pond has cycled). What would you charge for this in concrete?



Isnt this the whole point of the bidding process? Making sure the client understands apples to apples, and not compare apples to oranges? Hubby is starting a TIE WALL project tomorrow and is hating it already. He hasnt done a tie wall in at least 10 years. He is in love with the newer stacked block. Wont rot like ties, and can even be moved ... In the last two weeks, have done two tree removal projects for him, as well as remove a 30'x30'x8" concrete pad ... In total, $4000 which was a really great price for the amount of work done, and materials out ... So hubby didnt tell him no, even tho he tried his best to sell him a block wall instead ... Well, he gave him a price of $3600 for the tie work, and the client griped. Said he had an estimate for less. In looking at the other estimate, they were using PINE ties (best case will last 10 yrs before starting to rott), verses hubby is priced with 40 yr PT Hemlock ties ... If a hacker is going to suggest PINE, you can also bet that they have no clue about using deadmen, etc either.
 

sissy

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I guess it all comes down to is do you want to hire someone or do it your self .Hiring some one may be easy but you get what they build and there ideas .Just like rocks on the bottom means more work for you or them .I have yet to see a pond that is easy and no work .Gosh if you put a fish tank in your house and throw water and fish into and then a year later it looks and smells disgusting isn't that the same .I would love a pond that is even 50% less work but it is not out there unless you hire some one to tend to it .But would that be fun NO we take pride in the work we do and that is no matter what sized pond we build .After an earth quake what happens to a cement pond .I know here when we had the earthquake there were several pools in the news that had cracked and one house that comes to mind had there basement flooded by the water from the pond .It was finished too kitchen and everything lost .I replaced my liner after a dog destroyed it and would have been easier if i had not decided to dig the pond deeper and wider around the bottom .Cement would not be something most homeowners could do .I have a neighbor Marty who has a swimming pool liner pond and finally caught him and asked him how old it is and he said he did that with his dad when he was around 12 and he is now 54 and swimming pool pond still does not leak .They must have made pool liners really well back then .I love your work you do but there are not many pond builders around any more and here there are none .This is to rural for them .Just like anything if the homeowner has no knowledge and don't really understand anything about the project they are wanting done they will go with the cheapest and then learn the hard way and by then it is way to late .The best source now is the internet research a project first LEARN LEARN LEARN .WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE YOU WILL LOOSE
 

sissy

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Other thing is look at the prices of what you want because you will learn a contractor always gets the product you want cheaper which in the long run saves you money and by all means ask for references and ask to see projects they have done like yours and if this is the first time they have done the project ask them where they are getting there info from .Rely on your instincts if it does not feel right it may not be right .Block walls are much better this days with all the new stuff they come out with .
 

DouglasHoover

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Hey, Capewind, your husband is truly an artist with rock! Sounds like a professional also... I see why you would want to hang out with him on pond projects! Thanks for the pics, I enjoyed them immensely.

OK! I forgot I've lived a sheltered life here in San Diego, forgetting there is another world out there reading my rants, one that I once lived in (Jackson Mich.) To coin a phrase from the evil, weaselly psycho prison camp warden in "Cool Hand Luke" with Paul Newman (I'm dating myself): "What we have here is...failure to communicate!"

I think I just put a finger on the problem with you "Outlanders" not understanding my seemingly exaggerated liner vs concrete statistics. If you are reading my article, and agree wholeheartedly with my summation, I would assume that you too have been building ponds and ponds only, for the past 30 years in San Diego county, California (population 3.5 million), not a contractor in Barnstable county, Mass. (population 215,000) who builds a pond now and then. (And does an incredible job at that, I must add!) You must agree that with regard to this topic, taking collective experience into consideration, we are in no way comparing apples to apples. In San Diego county there are 49 licensed pond builders (no idea now many unlicensed ones) that are building ponds full time, 12 months out of the year. How many full time pond builders in Barnstable Co. and how many months of the year can a pond be built there in Mass?

It is a fact here in California, that even professional men have quit their jobs or businesses to build liner ponds, because it is so lucrative...then I and 4 other reinforced concrete pond builders are called by their clients to help solve the many issues.

Is every property in your area plagued with gophers and ground squirrels? No, because of your climate... these rodents, including rats and mice, love it here in the rock piles, excuse me, I mean waterfalls in every 3rd to 4th backyard. They especially are attracted to a water source in this desert climate and love burrowing under the cool liners in the heat of the spring, summer and fall months. LOL I'm not rubbing it in ;-)
I hope you can now see why these statistics are reasonable for this scenario. It has gotten so bad that most realtors insist that a home owner listing her house must first rip out the liner pond and fill in the hole. That's because HERE in San Diego county, liner ponds are a liability not an asset...depreciating the property- negative curb appeal and a maintenance nightmare.

Have you experienced homes, one a 5.5 million dollars house in LaJolla Country Club, starting to slide into a canyon because of a long term leaky liner pond with an automatic filler that kept replacing the water leaking from the pond for over two years? Note: These people never look at their water bill. LOL)

OK OK enough already! LOL I won't mention liner ponds again, I promise! If you want to learn more, just Google: "liners vs concrete" (269,000 results)
Well.... just one more mention: I have seen some of the most beautiful water gardens in the world here in San Diego County that were constructed with a liner that make my work look amateur! Warm regards to Capewind, Waterbug and Murkywaters and to anyone else daring to comment on the "L word."
 

sissy

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I have taken out several ponds for realtors here people don't want to bothered by them or spend the money on them .Pumps and all that stuff just means higher utility bills for them .Can't blame them .They are just fighting to live around here .Houses you can buy for 20 thousand with land because there are no jobs .They are a big turn off just like people who don't like wall paper and walk in the house and want to leave no matter how cheap the house price might be ,it is taste specific .Money is hard to come by and seems everyone wants move in ready .We here are just pond newbies no matter how long we have ponds ,something new all the time and we are busy bees changing our ponds around .A true pond nut is proud of what they do .I love your ponds douglas but I could never afford on a retirees budget to do any of it .Ford does not pay that much .Wish I could afford a dream pond but it will always be a dream and have to be happy with my affordable dream . :razz:
 
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He will appreciate your compliments:) I thought with your concrete experience, you would appreciate the rockwork. With raising three kids and supporting him starting a business with three babies underfoot (well 2 at the start LOL), I didnt have the time to be interested in the business, nor ponds, aside from feeding fish. I actually joined this group to learn more without driving him nuts. The next pond, while not very big, will be the first one that I actually understand all that is going on from conception to completion.



We say the same for our little sand bar. Come over that bridge, and it is a different world than what most know.



Totally different environments. There are almost no pond builders here, of either type. There is a new store that opened an hour away that advertises pond building, but the gossip in the trade about them is not good. I dont think they will last. Out of ALL of the pond builders in the area, I dont even think there are 20 ponds built here a year. Your environment is more fast paced than it is here ... We are a communuty nearly 400 years old, yet still more "island" than what most can understand. The locals dont even accept half of our population and call them "wash-a-shores" (in the winter, the locals are all that remain, we are too boring for the city folk to handle) ... Of the locals however, it doesnt matter if you are wealthy or dirt poor, you are accepted because you understand the lifestyle here. There is still high value placed on the average hardworker BY THE LOCALS, so any contractor who does a good job can thrive here. The hackers only manage mainly to get jobs with the wash-a-shores. Again, that island mentality, and gossips spreads fast LOL.



Yes, when there is money to be made, people are going to jump on the bandwagon. I would however use the term professional loosely. In the landscape trades, one of the best money areas are in tree work. I love it when I hand someone a quote for say $1500, and they say XXX will do it for $750. If I am giving a quote of $1500 or more, it is either a big nasty tree, or our climber is going to be up it for a few hours. I'll outright tell a client to go ahead and hire that other person. We're rolling in with $200k in equipment (10 wheel truck and machine) and PROOF OF INSURANCE ... In over 20 years of doing extensive tree work, have NEVER had a claim against our insurance ... Feel free to call our agent. Hubby wants to be doing more ponds, as that is one of his hobbies, but the market is small at best. After this tie wall that he really doesnt want to do, the next project is a 60' wide, by 14' high sea wall ... THAT he is looking forward to.

 

sissy

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my father used to clear lots and cut down trees for kaplan builders in NJ and kaplan was smart as a builder as he never took all the trees down only choice ones so there were mature trees to make the landscaping look better and give shade .Takes a person to know what trees are good to keep and which ones gotta go
 
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Exactly Sissy ... for the client hubby is starting the tie work tomorrow for, the first of the tree removals were just a few dead scrub/black pines... told him he should consider getting rid of the rest of the pines (bad shape, coning out and full of borers), to give room to the oaks... he did:) Hubby hates taking down a healthy tree, and our climber, omg, dont ever ask him to spike (the spikes strapped on to his boots) a healthy tree, even for a prune. Oasha would have a fit, but hubby will just lift him up with the machine bucket to a point where he can free climb (still with a gut strap for his safety) ...
 

DouglasHoover

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Makes sense to me- Most Americans are wasteful to some degree- most land developers in CA completely strip the land of all existing trees when building a subdivision because it cost too much to work around them! Sad! Very sad! Doug
 

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