Solving the algae mystery

[Waterbug]

You were try to make a post to explain algae. Instead, you posted a 1000 word post that only served to confuse.

I understand you're confused and very upset. But there's not really anything I can do about that. Sorry. You do have options like not reading anything that questions your beliefs or better yet just post links to research that backs up your claims...maybe even just one. I'd be happy to learn more. I have no problem changing my view as better info comes my way.

But just sitting around insulting me and stomping your feet repeating your opinions over and over like they're based on fact is really not very interesting or appealing to me. We all have our hobbies though.

The goal is to make it simple! Not more confusing.

The goal? Who's goal? Is this some kind of law where you live? My goal is to learn. In order to write the post I had to do a lot of reading, watched the video again, etc.

 

[Waterbug]

Of course it does, you contradict yourself.
- Here's how it works. Your biofilter converts the candy NH3 to NO3-. So there is no or little. NH3. Algae resorts to NO3-, but WH uses this also. WH means less NO3- for the algae. And I've seen it work. When I was new to this, I hired a maintenance guy. He took away all the WH saying that they were all gonna die anyway. The next thing I knew, the pond was completely filled with algae in the next day or two. And I mean filled so much that I couldn't see a few inches into the water. Co-incidence? I think not. Also, you ever heard of veggie scrubbers? So not a myth of a wacky idea. Makes complete sense.

The reason it's wacky is because it is so easy to disprove. All it takes is measuring the ammonia and nitrate level. That's its. So simple a 5 year old could do it. And it's been done many times.

I've repeated this now for the 3rd time and obviously you have no interest in reading any of the material I've provide. But I'll repeat it one more time slowly....the water is toxic to the algae. The algae dies almost on contact. It doesn't starve.

Now I'm bored.

 

[JohnHuff]

But just sitting around insulting me and stomping your feet repeating your opinions over and over like they're based on fact is really not very interesting or appealing to me. We all have our hobbies though.

Challenging your arguments is not the same as a personal insult. I didn't repeat my opinions, I questioned your post to which you have no answer, except to say it's an insult. Please highlight the personal insult.

Very well, I guess you don't have an answer. Sometimes WB makes good arguments. Sometimes he does this...

 

[Dave 54]

The reason it's wacky is because it is so easy to disprove. All it takes is measuring the ammonia and nitrate level. That's its. So simple a 5 year old could do it. And it's been done many times.

I've repeated this now for the 3rd time and obviously you have no interest in reading any of the material I've provide. But I'll repeat it one more time slowly....the water is toxic to the algae. The algae dies almost on contact. It doesn't starve.

Now I'm bored.

You cant just leave this as it is waterbug your letting yourself down (I'm bored, your own words not mine) civil questions have been asked and civil answers given so far so why tire of us mortals now.?
It is sad you choose to do this your negativity lets you down each and every time which is so sad......be it talking repeatedy to each and every novice in a calm and undertanding way ......or now!!!...... we should all be glad to explain the meanings of our words to those who dont understand them, dumbing them down if and when necessary
Your thread has so far only served to confuse others and your statements need clarifying and also presented in a way others can understand what your on about.
John has kept it plain and simple in terms we can understand .
People coming across your Myth statements might take it as you've stated a Myth next thing you know they have problems
So how do you come by the assumptions that these things are a myth are they through careful observation through your years of experiance in buidling and maintaining ponds or is it taken from the internet.?
These are the observations I've noted whilst weve been outdoors from our own pond
It's a fact our pond has no shade and in the summer is in brilliant sunshine but no algae bloom no string algae .blanket weed why?.
It's a fact that our water perameters are always as near to normal as you can possibly get
It's fact we do water changes throughout the winter and in the spring our water is cyristal clear with no string algae/ b;anket weed why .?
It;s a fact that our filtration is prepared for late Autumn by cleaning thoroughly then in lte spring and also in mid summer does this keep it in total check ?.
I'ts a fact that we have a short blanket of algae on the sides and bottom of the pond but never suffer the string algae blanket weed others do each and every year why?
Under cover the moss growing in our over flow pipe basin grows like nothing else but the algae unless it is being cropped by our koi all winter stays the same length throughout the year.
So is it we have the very good mechanical system that converts everything as John states because I'm at a total loss otherwise, just what is saving us from this.
Other than Johns simplyfied explanation that is . so perhaps if we can come up with the answer between us, then we can save others the problem each and every year.......


Dave

 

[Catfishnut]

My goal is to learn. In order to write the post I had to do a lot of reading, watched the video again, etc.

WB,

That is a worthy goal and it is my goal, too. I like to learn because, quite frankly, learning is fun and exciting! Your original post here was enlightening to me and I also agreed with a great deal of it. Especially the part regarding UV and algae. If people are using UV treaters to kill some of the floating, single cell algae, then wouldn't a pond in full sun also help to kill algae?

I have seen numerous small natural ponds in nature which are in full sun which have absolutely (or to be most accurate) virtually no algae and within a stones throw away there is another pond which is overrun with algae. They are both getting the same solar exposure and yet they are different. They are the same depth and size, yet they are different. They have the same substrate for a bottom, yet they are obviously different. The aquatic life is virtually the same as far as I can percieve and the water sources for each pond are as nearly identical as they can be, so what could be the difference?

Maybe this is something we should all take a field trip to examine. Armed with test kits for pH and temperature and O2 content etc. etc. etc. My contention here is, if we knew why and how everything works in nature, then we could attempt to synthesize or duplicate this in our ponds. I do place an emphasis on the "attempt to" part.

I will state a tongue-in-cheek, facetious comment here, however.... If you want a totally clear pond, devoid of any and all algae, then just chlorinate the hell out of it! No algae, no plants, no fish, just nice clean, crystal clear water... Like a swimming pool.

Gordy

 

[JohnHuff]

I have seen numerous small natural ponds in nature which are in full sun which have absolutely (or to be most accurate) virtually no algae and within a stones throw away there is another pond which is overrun with algae.

I was thinking that myth about sunlight and algae came about because the sun warmed up the pond water encouraging growth, not because the sun encouraged photosynthesis.

 

[sissy]

algae is algae and it just loves to grow so why over think it .It is there or it is not there or it is just hiding to sneak up on you .It is there so companies can make money off all the stuff to sell you and you try it and either nothing happens or it only last for a day or 2 .It is just a good money maker .

 

[morewater]

When I get that string algae on my waterfall, it screws up the "fall", as the water just follows the algae tendrils. Don't like it, so I use my pressure washer to get rid of it. Over the years, I've found that algae growth on falls is largely dependant on the stone type used to construct the falls.

 

[dieselplower]

I have found that the hair type algae and string type algae tend to grow in my pond when the water is colder. I could not get right of that junk last Spring and then all of a sudden one day, wham, all gone, until late fall when the water cooled again. When the water warms up the green water type of algae becomes more common in my pond. Throw a UV sterilizer in there and that clears it right up. The bulb burnt out and it came back. Im going to try using the blue dye more regularly to see if keeping the Suns rays from penetrating the pond as much will help.

 

[crsublette]

Of course it does, you contradict yourself.
- Here's how it works. Your biofilter converts the candy NH3 to NO3-. So there is no or little. NH3. Algae resorts to NO3-, but WH uses this also. WH means less NO3- for the algae. And I've seen it work. When I was new to this, I hired a maintenance guy. He took away all the WH saying that they were all gonna die anyway. The next thing I knew, the pond was completely filled with algae in the next day or two. And I mean filled so much that I couldn't see a few inches into the water. Co-incidence? I think not. Also, you ever heard of veggie scrubbers? So not a myth of a wacky idea. Makes complete sense.

Yeah, now, you're talking about the "co-incidence" problem, that is the solution was provided by the "stuff" on the plant rather than any contributions from the plant itself, and, when plants are involved, notice how the subject is twisted into suggesting that Water Hyacinth removes all nutrients including the algae, which is quite silly. It is irritating when folk use "co-incidence" involved in denouncing other's reasoning.


The fact is Water Hyacinth adds to the resource competition, thus creating a nutrient imbalance, and also all aquatic plants release their own allelopathic chemicals in addition to encouraging more microorganisms to grow from the plant's roots.

Allelopathic Effects of Water Hyacinth (collaborated with Cairo University in Egypt and Illinois University at Carbondale) - Explains and demonstrates antimicrobial and anti-algal properties of Water Hyacinth.

Striking a Deal with the Weed From Hell : Using Hyacinth to combat algae (collaborated with University of Washington) - Explains and demonstrates how Water Hyacinth combats algae using shade, nutrient reduction, and amongst other variables.

However, there are algae that can come in defense of the algae being attacked by the Water Hyacinth. Particular blue-green bacterium algae species can be introduced to the water from the wind or other critters, and, once these species are established, they can emit allelopathic toxins that can make Water Hyacinth chlorotic, which can eventually kill the plant and even other heavy nitrogen consumers and shading aquatic plants such as duckweed. (location 1556, Walstad, Diana Louise (2013-05-15). Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise (Kindle Location 3428). Echinodorus Pub. Kindle Edition.)

Also, Water Hyacinth has a preference in absorbing ammonium nitrogen rather than nitrate nitrogen. (location 3419, Walstad, Diana Louise (2013-05-15). Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise (Kindle Location 3428). Echinodorus Pub. Kindle Edition.)


For waste water treatment operations, rather than using algae although algae is still beneficial in this context, a common plant combination in these operations to clean the water are Water Hycainth, duckweed, pennywort, water lettuce, pickerelweed, and cattails. (location 4389, Walstad, Diana Louise (2013-05-15). Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise (Kindle Location 3428). Echinodorus Pub. Kindle Edition.)

However, Water Hyacinth can significantly choke water of oxygen as shown in "experimental ponds with a water hyacinth cover but no submerged plants were shown to have only 0.2 to 3.0 mg/ l DO (dissolved oxygen)" (location 4730, Walstad, Diana Louise (2013-05-15). Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise (Kindle Locations 4736-4737). Echinodorus Pub. Kindle Edition.

So, it would be best to pair Hornwort, anachris, and other submerged plants below the above mentioned floating plants.

Also, Azolla can be mixed with the above plants since the Azolla's symbiotic relationship with blue-green algae can help prevent the algae from harming Water Hyacinth, that is depending on the blue-green algae the Azolla attracts. So, be careful when experimenting with Azolla.


However, it is unavoidable that some predation is required as well, either from fish or other algae eaters to control the blue-green algae, such as the Chinese Hi Fin Shark, that is myxocyprinus asiaticus (which mixes extremely well in a goldfish/koi pond).

The reason it's wacky is because it is so easy to disprove. All it takes is measuring the ammonia and nitrate level. That's its. So simple a 5 year old could do it. And it's been done many times.

I've repeated this now for the 3rd time and obviously you have no interest in reading any of the material I've provide. But I'll repeat it one more time slowly....the water is toxic to the algae. The algae dies almost on contact. It doesn't starve.

Now I'm bored.

What material have you presented that indicates that there is not a resource competition between aquatic plants and algae ?? None that I have noticed.

Nothing in that post you addressed infers that the Water Hycanth removed all algae nor all nutrients. He is just describing, while portaying an example, of what you called "resource competition" and how the nutrient imbalance impacts algae growth.


When in the aquatic context, resource competition against algae from plants can not simply be ignored by quite simply stating that "the water is toxic to algae".

 

[crsublette]

I was thinking that myth about sunlight and algae came about because the sun warmed up the pond water encouraging growth, not because the sun encouraged photosynthesis.

The myth likely came from the studies of how Water Hyacinth is used in rivers, bays, and lakes to shade water and nutrient reduction in order to reduce algae growth.

However, rather than citing just half of a sentence that Waterbug referenced, here is the full paragraph, which changes things a bit, except not much: "In a typical algal-cultivation system, such as an open pond, light only penetrates the top 3 to 4 inches (76–102 mm) of the water, though this depends on the algae density. As the algae grow and multiply, the culture becomes so dense that it blocks light from reaching deeper into the water. Direct sunlight is too strong for most algae, which can use only about 1⁄10 the amount of light they receive from direct sunlight; however, exposing an algae culture to direct sunlight (rather than shading it) is often the best course for strong growth, as the algae underneath the surface get more light."

Thus, even though direct unfiltered sunlight is not helpful to algae, it still needs a significant volume of sunlight to grow, which actually is hindered by additional shading.

Now, of course, there is algae that has very little lighting requirements, that function much like Hornwort, so there can still be algae present except the algae will likely not be the quite invasive species.

 

[Dave 54]

Then along we come and remove the chlorine Gordy with our dechlorinator unit and convert it into water the koi can breath without damaging their gills.

Dave

 

[JohnHuff]

Striking a Deal with the Weed From Hell : Using Hyacinth to combat algae (collaborated with University of Washington) - Explains and demonstrates how Water Hyacinth combats algae using shade, nutrient reduction, and amongst other variables.

Fantastic article and totally agree there. All it takes is an open mind and the ability to challenge long standing traditional ideas once in a while. I cringed to read of pouring sulfuric acid into the bay... But those were different times. I think people are more in tune with using natural remedies now, just like ponders, lol.

 

[dieselplower]

So am I correct in saying that although the title is "solving the algae mystery" nothing has been solved here?

 

[JohnHuff]

So am I correct in saying that although the title is "solving the algae mystery" nothing has been solved here?

Information that I hadn't seen has been posted and I have learned from this thread.
I didn't learn anything from WB's posts because they didn't add anything and he turned defensive and curmudgeonly.
I learned something from Charles' post even though it didn't apply directly to the thread, for example, I learned how authorities used to try to treat algae, but those were in the days they infected prisoners with STDs to try to cure them. And I also learned that manatees eat WH, which no doubt will be of use when I go on my favorite gameshow Jeopardy.