Soil substrate pond

[Meyer Jordan]

Right.
What lakes and oceans have going for them though, is their size.
In our small systems, interactions between fish and other predatory creatures is much more frequent, so that's why I think that the protection that anchored plants provide is even more important.
Even with the slightest water movement, detritus will float and eventually be trapped around the base of anchored plants.

Truthfully it is a grave error to place prime importance on any particular aspect or member of an aquatic environment. Each creature, be it flora or fauna, micro- or macro-, occupies a special place in an intricate, complex and dynamic system. The omission of even the smallest of these creatures creates a void that weakens the system as a whole.

 

[Nepen]

ok so i just got new substrate... and added a few more plants. i like how it looks. but my goldfish are having so much fun with them they uproot my plants many many MANY times....

I bleached the big rocks and all the decorations in there before put them back (they were black' so I'm about setting my cycle back to 1... but the substrate company said the substrate came with live bacteria (dont think it'll live in the bag with no air?) so we will see if my tank turn back to green pea soup in a few days or not.

 

[MitchM]

I like it, Nepen.
The more you can accommodate a fishes' natural behaviour, the less stress they'll have.

 

[MitchM]

Running these tanks with a garden soil substrate has made them the easiest aquatic ecosystems to maintain I have ever had.

No substrate vacuuming.
Plant trimming, topping up with water and feeding is all they require.
I performed some water tests on them last weekend, all 3 had PH between 8.0 and 8.3, source water is 7.3
Phosphate near undetectable, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate undetectable. KH between 180 and 220 ppm on all 3 tanks. Source water KH is 220 ppm.

No algae problems, and I've been expecting some.
Several weeks ago I was having some DOC issues with the heated tank, I was starting to have DOC bubbles the size of tennis balls. I added aeration and the issue is gone.
I have added an external canister filter to the heated tank because there would be a lot of suspended organic matter after pruning and removing rooted plants that were growing too much. There was beginning to be a circulation problem with all the plant growth. The suspended organic matter would cause a suspended algae bloom which was unattractive but not unhealthy.
When I would have an issue with suspended algae in the early days I would run a UV unit for about 10 days. The UV is still plumbed in, but the light is off.

No fish health issues and there are 2 species that are spawning regularly.

With the glass and acrylic walls, I can see different colours of fungi and cyanobacteria in the substrate, where they belong.

No water changes have ever been done on the 2 cold water setups, the last water change done on the heated tank was 4 months ago. I was going to set up a trickle water change on the heated tank, but the source water is only 4 celcius (39F), so that would only cause the heater to constantly run. That's a waste of energy.

I'll get some pictures up later today after the sun is up.

.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Your source water pH being 7.3, to what do you attribute the higher final pH readings of 8.0+?

 

[MitchM]

Your source water pH being 7.3, to what do you attribute the higher final pH readings of 8.0+?

I think it's because of the submerged plants, taking up the CO2 and nitrate.
There's no CO2 or nitric acid available to bring down the PH.

.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I think it's because of the submerged plants, taking up the CO2 and nitrate.
There's no CO2 or nitric acid available to bring down the PH.

.

If there is nothing to bring the pH down, then it should remain at the level of the source water (7.3). There are no by-products of bio-conversion that raise pH, but obviously something is, and by by a factor of 10, which is quite large. Yet KH is relatively unchanged between the tanks and the source water.

 

[MitchM]

We have a fair amount of soluable iron in our well water, perhaps that plays a role.
I wonder if iron bacteria in the well could be contributing CO2 to the source water which is then consumed by the plants.
I was going to mention aeration as a factor in driving off CO2, but I only use aeration in the heated tank. The other 2 tanks have no significant circulation or aeration.
I'll try running the water from the source for a few minutes next time and remeasure the PH level.
I'll leave a glass of the source water out overnight as well to see if that makes a difference.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

We have a fair amount of soluable iron in our well water, perhaps that plays a role.
I wonder if iron bacteria in the well could be contributing CO2 to the source water which is then consumed by the plants.
I was going to mention aeration as a factor in driving off CO2, but I only use aeration in the heated tank. The other 2 tanks have no significant circulation or aeration.
I'll try running the water from the source for a few minutes next time and remeasure the PH level.
I'll leave a glass of the source water out overnight as well to see if that makes a difference.

pH will affect the solubility of iron (the lower the pH the higher the solubility), but there are no reciprocal effects that would influence pH level. If an excess of CO2 is being produced then this would drive down the pH level due to the increased acidity of the water. This can obviously be discounted.
A most interesting puzzle!

 

[MitchM]

The greenhouse pond is about 6 months old now, here are a few updated pictures.
There is no mechanical filtration, 2 shubunkins and minimal water circulation.

Other than top up the water and feed the fish, I have done nothing to the setup.
The water has remained crystal clear, I have not cleaned the glass, vacuumed the substrate or trimmed the plants.
Plant overgrowth is going to be an issue, I'm looking for something to keep the plant growth in check. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Plant pests have been an ongoing problem with the marginal plants in the wetlands filter , spider mites, whiteflies and aphids. I remove infected leaves when the infestation gets too bad. Yellow sticky paper is effective, but doesn't eliminate the pests entirely.

The clay/gravel substrate in the wetlands filter has settled enough so that there is surface water, so I expected algae to grow in that area, but there has been none - only a small amount of moss.
Water temperature has dropped as low as to 11c/51f during this winter so far.

I'm very pleased with how low maintenance this setup is.
The wetland filter is obviously undersized to properly accommodate the plant roots . Not sure what I'll do about that, maybe change the plant selection.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Plant overgrowth is going to be an issue, I'm looking for something to keep the plant growth in check. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Manual thinning is the only sure-fire control.

Plant pests have been an ongoing problem with the marginal plants in the wetlands filter , spider mites, whiteflies and aphids. I remove infected leaves when the infestation gets too bad. Yellow sticky paper is effective, but doesn't eliminate the pests entirely.

I have used this in the past with good success-
'Light oil sprays will suffocate the aphids and are not harmful to fish or plants.
Sprays should be repeated every 10 days to be most effective. Mix two parts vegetable oil to eight parts water and a dash of dishwashing detergent. Treat in the evening and rinse off the oil the next morning."

Thanks for the update. Proves that a balanced ecosystem is self-sustaining and practically maintenance-free.

 

[sissy]

I use to get the spray oils at my grocery store also and they worked great .I actually found the olive oil sprays work better for some reason .

 

[MitchM]

Manual thinning is the only sure-fire control.



I have used this in the past with good success-
'Light oil sprays will suffocate the aphids and are not harmful to fish or plants.
Sprays should be repeated every 10 days to be most effective. Mix two parts vegetable oil to eight parts water and a dash of dishwashing detergent. Treat in the evening and rinse off the oil the next morning."

Thanks for the update. Proves that a balanced ecosystem is self-sustaining and practically maintenance-free.

I'm trying to recreate what it would be like having a soil substrate outdoor pond and I can't see it being practical trying to prune plants at the 5 foot depth.
Do you think if I added a koi, that the koi would uproot and eat the plants?

I thought that the problem with using an oil based solution was that the oil would both settle on the pond surface, restricting gas exchange plus possibly clog the gills of the fish. Is that not the case?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I'm trying to recreate what it would be like having a soil substrate outdoor pond and I can't see it being practical trying to prune plants at the 5 foot depth.

Even earthen-bottom ponds have a problem with vegetative overgrowth. They often utilize various herbicides. I am pretty sure that you do not want to go this route.

Do you think if I added a koi, that the koi would uproot and eat the plants?

The one thing that you can usually count on, besides also increasing turbidity in the water.

I thought that the problem with using an oil based solution was that the oil would both settle on the pond surface, restricting gas exchange plus possibly clog the gills of the fish. Is that not the case?

It should not be necessary to use that much at any given time. What oil that does settle on the water's surface will not affect any fish below. In addition, vegetable oil is considerable lighter than other oils and will degrade faster in water.The bacteria will think that it is just another organic compound to be eaten.

 

[MitchM]

I don't mind a little turbidity, and it's not bad for the fish, so I may give a koi a try.
If the turbidity gets too bad, or when the koi outgrows the space, the koi can go to the outdoor pond.

I'm fortunate that we have a natural pond on our property, so if I can get an underwater camera, I can have a look and see how it's doing as far as plant growth goes.