Reconstructing/revamping shelves 17 year old pond + plants? (newbie)

[brokensword]

were it mine, I'd get the liner completely out, then start digging in/out shelves as I see them (lower for plants, shallow to hide the liner ALL THE WAY AROUND), and then, IF the old liner still fit, use it. This means you NEED 12" that will lay on the ground AFTER your rocks are on the shallow shelf and the liner laid underneath and behind. If the old liner didn't fit, I'd order a new one to get exactly what I described above. You can see from GB's pic, how easy it is to visualize without the liner. Designing with the liner in place just seems more confusing.

And of course, as you dig in/out your shelves, look to make shallow areas for plants, deep areas for larger boulders (if you want any, like GB did). I found after the fact, that I wished I'd included some shallow area for small fish, turtles, plants (like clover, which the fish like to eat until it's gone!), etc. I filled my 'shallower' end with rocks and laid some pea gravel on top to get such a shallow area, but it's not as large as I'd like. Maybe when LPS hits, I'll include it in the re-design.

Good Luck!

 

[Duxwig]

So I watched the pond digger series and had some ideas but also was confused with all the rocks as “felt” like we were talking less rocks.

the shelf idea I guess made a bit more sense with a wider shelf than tall to line rocks on the outer edge, inner edge, and gravel between to put plants (?)

like I went from “oh, no big rocks should be on/up from the deep bottom,” to “oh, I should be making a rock wall to the next shelf” after watching. Intended? Lol

also here are no liner/under fabric pictures. Feel the edge closer to the house needs less work for rocks/plants but the far edge needs a whole revamp as the shelf is just poorly placed it seems.
the far back corner still seems good for lots of plants like I thought.

 

[Duxwig]

I found these two edging examples - probably based on preference but thoughts on all the various options? Any favorites?

 

[Lisak1]

So you can choose to rock the walls in your pond OR You can leave them bare - mostly personal preference. You have a narrow pond to work with - I think I'd go with no rocks on the side to allow for more water volume.

You do NOT want large rocks in the bottom of the pond - they can trap debris and cause problems down the road. But a shallow gravel bottom will give bacteria more surface area to colonize. It's another one of those "love it or hate it" concepts in pond building - your choice really.

As for the edging - all of those are fine. The ONLY thing you need to worry about is keeping the liner above water level. They don't do the best job of illustrating that - you want several inches of liner above the water level - too close to level and you're risking wicking or plants breeching the edge and pushing down the liner. (Keep reading to find out how I know that!) I'm not a fan of cementing anything in place. First because I have no idea how to do it, but secondly because you'll find you want to move things around or make a few changes here and there. Once you've cemented rocks in place you're kind of stuck. (haha!) Now if you're looking for a formal pond then the capping and cement makes sense.

The one thing they don't illustrate is that you want to fold the excess liner (and you DO want excess) down behind the rocks on the land side. Keeping that excess liner available could be a life saver later. Ponds settle, rocks settle, dirt settles... and then you find yourself with a liner that's too short. We just had 2/3 of our ten year old pond re-edged to get the liner back up where it needed to be. No additional liner needed - they just unfolded what we had concealed behind the rocks. You then push and pack soil up behind the liner to hold it in place, plant or mulch up to the rock and you'll never know the liner is there. The Ponddigger illustrates that concept very well in his video on various edging approaches.

 

[GBBUDD]

@addy1 This edging detail @Duxwig has posted should be added to the how to build posts we have started

 

[Duxwig]

So you can choose to rock the walls in your pond OR You can leave them bare - mostly personal preference. You have a narrow pond to work with - I think I'd go with no rocks on the side to allow for more water volume.

You do NOT want large rocks in the bottom of the pond - they can trap debris and cause problems down the road. But a shallow gravel bottom will give bacteria more surface area to colonize. It's another one of those "love it or hate it" concepts in pond building - your choice really.

As for the edging - all of those are fine. The ONLY thing you need to worry about is keeping the liner above water level. They don't do the best job of illustrating that - you want several inches of liner above the water level - too close to level and you're risking wicking or plants breeching the edge and pushing down the liner. (Keep reading to find out how I know that!) I'm not a fan of cementing anything in place. First because I have no idea how to do it, but secondly because you'll find you want to move things around or make a few changes here and there. Once you've cemented rocks in place you're kind of stuck. (haha!) Now if you're looking for a formal pond then the capping and cement makes sense.

The one thing they don't illustrate is that you want to fold the excess liner (and you DO want excess) down behind the rocks on the land side. Keeping that excess liner available could be a life saver later. Ponds settle, rocks settle, dirt settles... and then you find yourself with a liner that's too short. We just had 2/3 of our ten year old pond re-edged to get the liner back up where it needed to be. No additional liner needed - they just unfolded what we had concealed behind the rocks. You then push and pack soil up behind the liner to hold it in place, plant or mulch up to the rock and you'll never know the liner is there. The Ponddigger illustrates that concept very well in his video on various edging approaches.

Thanks for all the thorough responses. Think I need to now sit and do some envisioning.

 

[GBBUDD]

There are some great detailed drawing there. However it would have been nice if they had included a rating scale. Some of those deatils are much easier to maintain and keep from having water leak over the sides or whick water up and over. i myself love the top two on the right but not with all of the pond it will look best with a combination or edging

 

[Duxwig]

There are some great detailed drawing there. However it would have been nice if they had included a rating scale. Some of those deatils are much easier to maintain and keep from having water leak over the sides or whick water up and over. i myself love the top two on the right but not with all of the pond it will look best with a combination or edging

Definitely like those setups also with top right maybe more so. Thanks for all the help and encouragement y’all.

 

[mgmine]

Loose all the round rocks, keep the skimmer and put a pump in it. Buy some flat rocks and cover the edge of the liner and the top of the shelves. Refill the pond and call it a day.

 

[Duxwig]

Ugh! I’m feeling design paralysis while being adventurous.

Need design help not just ideas but sizing!

I was hoping for a 3x3x9 slanted’ish sides mound (paver inside structure for stability) but could be not feasible.

I want a waterfall feature of some type. Basically one of those “what’s the largest I can fit in this space?” questions.
Along w height was thinking 14” weir with two 12” round stones on side but 3’ wide is too much I think.
Not using biofalls and planned to try making own spillway and waterfall foam.
Not using stones I can’t man handle or slow roll (18-24”).

We look at it our dining room window all day, figured front as river and backside as mound with the water feature.
Don’t care what backside of mound - on the side towards fence/path looks like as much.

1) What would you do to make this interesting with a waterfall / snaking rapids in this small area?
Need structural ideas!
Give ideas of measurements as I’m the analytical type lol - size of stones on side,
Width of weir, depth of it, fall distance.

2) how do I “cover” where the waterfall
starts/tubing water exiting. - like how do I make the start of the spillway without biofalls waterfall apparatus.
My mind I can see it shooting into a raised pool of water which has a falls, but also unnatural. Just having it tumble down rocks and no falls seems depressing. (Attraction for sound and visual)

3) I would like plants on the mound/falls feature and how to arrange this structurally.

I watched a bunch of videos but they’re either with biofalls being installed or just kinda skip over the “how” process for more “diy” spillway types.

I’m still feeling reallly stumped and defeated about how to build this to look good.

 

[combatwombat]

Lots of questions, and not sure I understand all of them, but I can address the one about covering/starting the waterfall. I think a good way to do it is to sink a water matrix block into the ground inside your liner at the start of your falls and cover in gravel and plant around it. Have water enter at bottom of block and rise up to fill the stream/falls. Makes it look like the falls is fed by a natural spring.

 

[brokensword]

Ugh! I’m feeling design paralysis while being adventurous.

Need design help not just ideas but sizing!

I was hoping for a 3x3x9 slanted’ish sides mound (paver inside structure for stability) but could be not feasible.

I want a waterfall feature of some type. Basically one of those “what’s the largest I can fit in this space?” questions.
Along w height was thinking 14” weir with two 12” round stones on side but 3’ wide is too much I think.
Not using biofalls and planned to try making own spillway and waterfall foam.
Not using stones I can’t man handle or slow roll (18-24”).

We look at it our dining room window all day, figured front as river and backside as mound with the water feature.
Don’t care what backside of mound - on the side towards fence/path looks like as much.

1) What would you do to make this interesting with a waterfall / snaking rapids in this small area?
Need structural ideas!
Give ideas of measurements as I’m the analytical type lol - size of stones on side,
Width of weir, depth of it, fall distance.

2) how do I “cover” where the waterfall
starts/tubing water exiting. - like how do I make the start of the spillway without biofalls waterfall apparatus.
My mind I can see it shooting into a raised pool of water which has a falls, but also unnatural. Just having it tumble down rocks and no falls seems depressing. (Attraction for sound and visual)

3) I would like plants on the mound/falls feature and how to arrange this structurally.

I watched a bunch of videos but they’re either with biofalls being installed or just kinda skip over the “how” process for more “diy” spillway types.

I’m still feeling reallly stumped and defeated about how to build this to look good.

View attachment 142988

View attachment 142989

View attachment 142990

View attachment 142991

my 2 cents;

this post is rambly and I can see why CW had questions as so do I. Much of waterfall design is in the eye of the beholder. My waterfall may do nothing for you but someone else may love it. Hence part of the problem. So, IF this were mine;

I'd NOT put much height for the waterfall as nothing I'm seeing in your pics makes me think it would look like it has always been there. You'd have to re-landscape to gain some berms and such to allow a 'hill' to be turned into a waterfall. So, that leaves a low waterfall scenario; I hope this is what you're aiming to achieve. For MY bog, I went with a raised box where the front/pond-side wall is made from stacked sandstone ledgerock. This gave me a 'wall' effect, much like what you're aiming for (I think). You could do the same and turn your waterfall into a bog as well, giving you even more filtration. I mean, you're going to pump water there anyhow, so why not let plants and bacteria help you out even more?

This wall of stone idea gave me many options re 'weir'. I ended up going with a top layer (one row higher than the bog water level) with gaps between. So in essence, I have multiple areas for the water to pour through and some shoots over the wall while most dribble/stream down the rock. You can then manipulate this top course of flat rock to put the water where you want it. One opening or many. You can even adjust your wall of stone to give you shelves for the water to either pool or drip off of.

To build the above, you'd make a box from ground-contact 4x4 (or 4x6), probably no higher than 12". You take your liner and wrap it up the front wall and over, then into your bog/waterfall, and then back up. The front of this liner should extend into your pond by 12" and the pond liner should come UP under the bog liner by the same or more. This eliminates wicking problems. Now, when you do this, you need a shelf able to support the stacked stone in front of the wood box with liner. I used 6" for 4" stone, but should have gone 8" for extra options. This stone lies ON the bog liner and stacks in front of it. At the top, you create a 'fold' that goes back toward the pond (I'll attach a pic of my bog/liner design) and then into the bog proper; this keeps the water from going BEHIND the rock and thus is forced down and over.

So the above is a bog design waterfall but you can go further if instead of a 'wall', you can use a tumble of round stone of various sizes to do the same, but you'd still need some sort of outer structure that is lined to contain all your waterfall water. Idea is the same but materials is different. You can use wood, concrete block, soil/berm, but whatever you use, the whole idea is all the water has to be contained. A bowl shape is used for most waterfalls (it's what I used on my 3 falls, but I also have berms to allow it to look more natural. I'll attach a pic of that too.

Re plantings; I wanted this look; rocks on the sides of falling water with plants on top and trailing down the sides. To get this, I put plants INSIDE my waterfall cavity, sitting on rocks/blocks and lifting out of the top to cover my waterfall 'top' rocks. For the plants trailing down, I set two pots of creeping jenny, one to either side of my 'tall' waterfall. Took about a year but now I have to actually trim it back. I'll see if I can also post a before and after pic to illustrate. It takes some time and patience but it's worth it. IF you can direct some of your water to go over your rocks, you could plant in the crevices of your waterfall rocks but since you won't have any soil, you'll probably lose anything during the winter/dormant months. I used pots of soil and they stay living.

Okay, pics;

design

before plantings; you can see the stacked sandstone and the gaps for water pour;

after plantings;

initial expanded waterfall (from one to two pours, same source point); note only rocks on sides;

after pots of creeping jenny placed on sides

the following summer;

and currently;

 

[PH Number 9]

This is what we are talking about, hides the liner nicelyView attachment 142084

I lay fresh Turf over my edges into the water...

 

[Duxwig]

my 2 cents;

this post is rambly and I can see why CW had questions as so do I. Much of waterfall design is in the eye of the beholder. My waterfall may do nothing for you but someone else may love it. Hence part of the problem. So, IF this were mine;

I'd NOT put much height for the waterfall as nothing I'm seeing in your pics makes me think it would look like it has always been there. You'd have to re-landscape to gain some berms and such to allow a 'hill' to be turned into a waterfall. So, that leaves a low waterfall scenario; I hope this is what you're aiming to achieve. For MY bog, I went with a raised box where the front/pond-side wall is made from stacked sandstone ledgerock. This gave me a 'wall' effect, much like what you're aiming for (I think). You could do the same and turn your waterfall into a bog as well, giving you even more filtration. I mean, you're going to pump water there anyhow, so why not let plants and bacteria help you out even more?

This wall of stone idea gave me many options re 'weir'. I ended up going with a top layer (one row higher than the bog water level) with gaps between. So in essence, I have multiple areas for the water to pour through and some shoots over the wall while most dribble/stream down the rock. You can then manipulate this top course of flat rock to put the water where you want it. One opening or many. You can even adjust your wall of stone to give you shelves for the water to either pool or drip off of.

To build the above, you'd make a box from ground-contact 4x4 (or 4x6), probably no higher than 12". You take your liner and wrap it up the front wall and over, then into your bog/waterfall, and then back up. The front of this liner should extend into your pond by 12" and the pond liner should come UP under the bog liner by the same or more. This eliminates wicking problems. Now, when you do this, you need a shelf able to support the stacked stone in front of the wood box with liner. I used 6" for 4" stone, but should have gone 8" for extra options. This stone lies ON the bog liner and stacks in front of it. At the top, you create a 'fold' that goes back toward the pond (I'll attach a pic of my bog/liner design) and then into the bog proper; this keeps the water from going BEHIND the rock and thus is forced down and over.

So the above is a bog design waterfall but you can go further if instead of a 'wall', you can use a tumble of round stone of various sizes to do the same, but you'd still need some sort of outer structure that is lined to contain all your waterfall water. Idea is the same but materials is different. You can use wood, concrete block, soil/berm, but whatever you use, the whole idea is all the water has to be contained. A bowl shape is used for most waterfalls (it's what I used on my 3 falls, but I also have berms to allow it to look more natural. I'll attach a pic of that too.

Re plantings; I wanted this look; rocks on the sides of falling water with plants on top and trailing down the sides. To get this, I put plants INSIDE my waterfall cavity, sitting on rocks/blocks and lifting out of the top to cover my waterfall 'top' rocks. For the plants trailing down, I set two pots of creeping jenny, one to either side of my 'tall' waterfall. Took about a year but now I have to actually trim it back. I'll see if I can also post a before and after pic to illustrate. It takes some time and patience but it's worth it. IF you can direct some of your water to go over your rocks, you could plant in the crevices of your waterfall rocks but since you won't have any soil, you'll probably lose anything during the winter/dormant months. I used pots of soil and they stay living.

Okay, pics;

design


View attachment 142993

before plantings; you can see the stacked sandstone and the gaps for water pour;

View attachment 142994

after plantings;


View attachment 142995

initial expanded waterfall (from one to two pours, same source point); note only rocks on sides;

View attachment 142996

after pots of creeping jenny placed on sidesView attachment 142998

the following summer;

View attachment 142997

and currently;

View attachment 142999

View attachment 143000

Thanks for the info and pics.
Rambly typing on my cellphone at 10pm after writing 3 versions(more broad for random Facebook ideas) but scrapped and figured this was a safer ask ha.

I figure I am/was trying to do some of the impossible/unnatural but was trying to stick w it. Just seems such a nice area for the start of pond but so blah and wanted to jazz it up.
In the end there is no berm/hill and was trying to find “natural” ways to make it less obvious I put it there just to create more than 3” of falls lol.

Thanks for the drawings pics and long replies.
I think I was struggling for the literal top of the waterfall. It appears most are just two rocks with a flagstone over the top of the center hole of water coming out?
(Struggle as it is/seems unnatural for two stones and flagstone to sit openly on the berm, was trying to think if I need to cover those rocks/flagstone top w soil also and plants to cover it)

My guess the waterfall box in the ground is as DIY as the weir?
I just have the black tubing feeding it, worried about sealing if I need to bottom fill.
The wife is 200% no on any digging, pipes, drains etc and will have dirt delivered and pond filled in before considering any further in ground changes.

I have visions as the beholder I think they’re just too lofty.
“What would you do” helps me narrow it. Give me a larger canvas/hill and I’d probably figure it out with some technical stuff, but I can’t get in a “tiny” mindset.

To phrase it another way - if you had your YouTube show of fixing broken ponds and had a bit of creativity - what would YOU do with this area?

I’m OK with a “low waterfall” scenario - but I think I’m saying “I’m too dumb to know what IS a low waterfall”

What IS small in this scenario (I’m pedantic and like dimensions)

What is the width of the weir? Can I go too big for this area?

How high do I plan the fall part? (6” to water? 12”? Yes it depends on me but depends on space too!)

How would falls/rapids face? (Parallel or perpendicular into this final pool)

Any tiers or just one falls into this smallish pond now sitting?

Just looking to jazz it up

 

[Duxwig]

Nothing too spectacular but this is the view from one corner of the dining room. (Don’t mind the trampled and cut - making Reno room).
In my mind, there’s just so many possibilities to make that area more interesting than just the tiny tide pool entrance the prev owners had as a starter.

Opening the window, drinking coffee, nice morning, relaxing with a working beautiful planty pond=
(As added historical the 1st owners also had a hot tub on this concrete slab along side the pond. Sounds wonderful)