Question on fish load

[Gemma]

I really, really want a white butterfly Koi..

mhumm here we go!

I don't know anyone that can have only 5 koi in that much water

you're gonna want a few more!
....and I too want a Platinum Ogon butterfly, I used to have one named Angel, beautiful and graceful, it really looked angelic

 

[Jimmy Gibson]

Your 438 gallon number will work just fine. Figure 15 pounds for a full size adult unless you have one of the Sakai giant females that weigh 30 to 40 pounds and you get about 28 gallons a pound. We try to stay in the 30 to 40 range. Anything above 10 gallons a pound can work. The lower you go the more you must clean the filters. Champion show ponders will give you the really high numbers like 1000 gallons a fish, but they have different problems than you have so don’t worry about that advice. Different ponds have different standards.[/QU

But at the end of the day......it depends on the bio filtration you have.....if you have crappy bio filtration 6000 gallons would not be enough.....in my situation I had enough when the water was warm.....everything was in sync.....but when the water temperature went below 50 it crashed...... Just because you quit feeding them does not mean that they quit putting out ammonia.....Jimmy

 

[Tara]

mhumm here we go! View attachment 113754
I don't know anyone that can have only 5 koi in that much waterView attachment 113753 you're gonna want a few more!
....and I too want a Platinum Ogon butterfly, I used to have one named Angel, beautiful and graceful, it really looked angelic

Funny, it's so hard to choose them at first they are all so beautiful. I will be good though and wait till next year. I can look just don't buy.

 

[carolinaguy]

mhumm here we go! View attachment 113754
I don't know anyone that can have only 5 koi in that much waterView attachment 113753 you're gonna want a few more!
....and I too want a Platinum Ogon butterfly, I used to have one named Angel, beautiful and graceful, it really looked angelic

The guy in our club with a show pond has 4 fish, all female, in 5000 gallons with a bakki shower and a 17000 gallon ultima filter. He runs so much air you cannot see the fish. He also runs a foam fractionator. That’s a champion koi pond, and it will do exactly what he is trying to do. My pond, on the other hand, is a display pond with 57 fish intended to display a beautiful school of fish. 8000 gallons with two 6000 gallon ultima filters, a UV sterilizer, four sump plant ponds with waterfalls, and a continuous exchange fill system running off a lake, and that does what we want it to do. Different purposes call for different ponds.

 

[Tara]

Tara......having made my share of mistakes in my first year ponding......with that being said I really know the temptations.....just one more won't hurt, and it might not.....but if I were you I would wait until next spring for any more fish and see how your filtration works out during the winter......then you have all winter to wanting to Lust over new fish you might be able to have next year......P. s......don't go to Next Day Koi.....Lol Jimmy

Thanks I will wait. I'm going to build a bigger filtration system this winter and then see. Only thing is they have beautiful Koi not far my house. All their fish are lovely. Here is one I got he his my favorite, and has gott

Tara......having made my share of mistakes in my first year ponding......with that being said I really know the temptations.....just one more won't hurt, and it might not.....but if I were you I would wait until next spring for any more fish and see how your filtration works out during the winter......then you have all winter to wanting to Lust over new fish you might be able to have next year......P. s......don't go to Next Day Koi.....Lol Jimmy

I'll wait till next year. Over the winter I plan on building a bigger filtration system, so I can spent this year becoming accustomed to Koi keeping. They sell lovely Koi fish less than two miles from my house, so I can all ways just look when getting food. Here is one I got, fast becoming my favorite, he follows and begs. Cant believe how big he grew in such a short time. This is all new to me, so I have far too much to learn about Koi before getting more, don't want to push my look and risk my favourite ,handsome fish.

 

[Tara]

Thanks I will wait. I'm going to build a bigger filtration system this winter and then see. Only thing is they have beautiful Koi not far my house. All their fish are lovely. Here is one I got he his my favorite, and has gott

I'll wait till next year. Over the winter I plan on building a bigger filtration system, so I can spent this year becoming accustomed to Koi keeping. They sell lovely Koi fish less than two miles from my house, so I can all ways just look when getting food. Here is one I got, fast becoming my favorite, he follows and begs. Cant believe how big he grew in such a short time. This is all new to me, so I have far too much to learn about Koi before getting more, don't want to push my look and risk my favourite ,handsome fish.

Not sure why this post kept not loading earlier so double post. My bad.

 

[Gemma]

I can look just don't buy.

Yeah, right!
I would take @Jimmy Gibson advise and wait till Spring to add fish!

 

[Gemma]

The guy in our club with a show pond has 4 fish, all female, in 5000 gallons with a bakki shower and a 17000 gallon ultima filter. He runs so much air you cannot see the fish. He also runs a foam fractionator. That’s a champion koi pond, and it will do exactly what he is trying to do. My pond, on the other hand, is a display pond with 57 fish intended to display a beautiful school of fish. 8000 gallons with two 6000 gallon ultima filters, a UV sterilizer, four sump plant ponds with waterfalls, and a continuous exchange fill system running off a lake, and that does what we want it to do. Different purposes call for different ponds.

Thank you for your involvement in this topic, it's being a big help!
May I ask how old are those 57 fish (I presume to be koi)?
I'm dyeing to see pics if at all possible, your pond sounds amazing!

 

[carolinaguy]

well they range from maybe14 years old to 1 year. pictures when we can get around to it. just too much to do here. please understand we have made bigger mistakes than most on this website over the years and have had mass die offs because of our errors. my specialty is suffocation due to poor backup planning. it happens.

i get a big kick out of folks new to the hobby who try to resolve a fish illness or explain a fish death in terms of parasites or water intrusion or mistakes in dosage or whatever. the bottom line is that we the pond keepers set the fish up for all these things when we design a pond that is inadequate to maintain the fish over time. sure it works for six months or two years, but these fish live a long time and stuff happens. my big mistake the last time was running my air pump off an external GFI and having only one air pump in a pond that was incompletely constructed. the waterfalls were still being built and two were unavailable for example. an evening thunderstorm came through at about 9pm and knocked out power on our GFI lines, so the fish were in a pond all night with no filtration and no auxillary air. killed all the big ones. 140 pounds of dead fish because i wasnt prepared. its never the fish and never the parasite and never the ground water intrusion. its the owner who can't see the flaws in their design. im not blaming anyone or saying that there is malicious intent here. we need to share our knowledge as a community and learn from our mistakes together. be honest about your purpose for your pond up front. for example if you want what we have in a large school of fish, a fish focused pond, do not build an aquascapes pond. that doesnt make aquascapes a bad idea. on the contrary they build magnificent systems. they just don't necessarily build them for large fish loads. there are 8 different kinds of ponds out there. pick the one that is right for you.

 

[Gemma]

there are 8 different kinds of ponds out there. pick the one that is right for you.

One of the reasons I love this forum, is that members don't all try to pass for experts, they are open about their mistakes and share knowledge based on their own negative experience.

I'm not sure what the 8 different ponds are, but I know what I would like...my goal is not a high number of fish, I value space more and at feeding time I'm able to enjoy each fish more if I don't have too many.
I have a list of about 25 favorite koi I would like to have within the 2 ponds, that includes the fish I already have (I was thinking 10 fish in one pond and 15 in the other) and then I will stop adding new fish. I'm trying to figure out if my settings will "in the long run" be adequate for such fish load, if not I will need to rethink that list.

 

[carolinaguy]

you have done exactly what you need to do to start planning. you defined your purpose. fish focused. so its not a championship pond. it might be a hybrid watergarden. its not a natural watergarden. are you planning to emulate a natural setting or will it be like ours, a display pond? we would not recommend an aquascapes pond because of the lack of bottom drains, but that is our preference and can be done in an aquascapes format. in ours there are no rocks. the plants are somewhat separate from the fish although we plan to finish our structure so that we can place water lilies with the fish. i'd recommend that you use bottom drains, skimmers, and diversion ports. that takes some plumbing, but we did it. anyone can. it just takes work and guidance. then you need to balance your water volume with your filtration and decide on flow rates for waterfalls. make sure there are no dead spots in the water flow. those encourage anaerobic growth. the aesthetics are yours to be creative and express who you are. lots of filtration and lots of air make you and your fish happy. draw it out. a picture is worth a thousand words and fewer sick fish. since you know the fish population, you can plan for 375 pounds of fish in the end. always begin with the end in mind. pick a gallon per pound ratio and you know your water volume. at 30 gallons that is about 11000 gallons in two ponds, 3000 and 8000. the volume includes all the water in your pond, plant areas, pipes and filters and not just the pond itself. that tells you your pump and filter sizes.

something to think about.

 

[Gemma]

you have done exactly what you need to do to start planning. you defined your purpose. fish focused. so its not a championship pond. it might be a hybrid watergarden. its not a natural watergarden. are you planning to emulate a natural setting or will it be like ours, a display pond? we would not recommend an aquascapes pond because of the lack of bottom drains, but that is our preference and can be done in an aquascapes format. in ours there are no rocks. the plants are somewhat separate from the fish although we plan to finish our structure so that we can place water lilies with the fish. i'd recommend that you use bottom drains, skimmers, and diversion ports. that takes some plumbing, but we did it. anyone can. it just takes work and guidance. then you need to balance your water volume with your filtration and decide on flow rates for waterfalls. make sure there are no dead spots in the water flow. those encourage anaerobic growth. the aesthetics are yours to be creative and express who you are. lots of filtration and lots of air make you and your fish happy. draw it out. a picture is worth a thousand words and fewer sick fish. since you know the fish population, you can plan for 375 pounds of fish in the end. always begin with the end in mind. pick a gallon per pound ratio and you know your water volume. at 30 gallons that is about 11000 gallons in two ponds, 3000 and 8000. the volume includes all the water in your pond, plant areas, pipes and filters and not just the pond itself. that tells you your pump and filter sizes.

something to think about.

Both my ponds will be hybrids, I like the looks of plants in the fish pool, but plants trap eggs resulting in unwanted fry, also the maintenance would require bothering the fish so I rather have all plants separate.
There are no rocks on the bottom, but also no bottom drain.I should have at least 11,000gls between the 2 ponds
This is my current pond

 

[Tara]

well they range from maybe14 years old to 1 year. pictures when we can get around to it. just too much to do here. please understand we have made bigger mistakes than most on this website over the years and have had mass die offs because of our errors. my specialty is suffocation due to poor backup planning. it happens.

i get a big kick out of folks new to the hobby who try to resolve a fish illness or explain a fish death in terms of parasites or water intrusion or mistakes in dosage or whatever. the bottom line is that we the pond keepers set the fish up for all these things when we design a pond that is inadequate to maintain the fish over time. sure it works for six months or two years, but these fish live a long time and stuff happens. my big mistake the last time was running my air pump off an external GFI and having only one air pump in a pond that was incompletely constructed. the waterfalls were still being built and two were unavailable for example. an evening thunderstorm came through at about 9pm and knocked out power on our GFI lines, so the fish were in a pond all night with no filtration and no auxillary air. killed all the big ones. 140 pounds of dead fish because i wasnt prepared. its never the fish and never the parasite and never the ground water intrusion. its the owner who can't see the flaws in their design. im not blaming anyone or saying that there is malicious intent here. we need to share our knowledge as a community and learn from our mistakes together. be honest about your purpose for your pond up front. for example if you want what we have in a large school of fish, a fish focused pond, do not build an aquascapes pond. that doesnt make aquascapes a bad idea. on the contrary they build magnificent systems. they just don't necessarily build them for large fish loads. there are 8 different kinds of ponds out there. pick the one that is right for you.

Wondering if I can pick your brain for more information. I build my pond, has a skimmer, waterfall with filter, pump @4200 gallons per hour, one smaller pump under water. Pond is approximately 3700 gallons, I have five Koi, and all ready they have grown in just three weeks. Next year I will be adding more filtration, and my question is what type would be best for the fish. An extra waterfall, bog etc. I build the pond with the idea each fish needed 1000 gallons full grown but was told I could have more, I don't plan on ever having more than seven fish. I do know extra an filter will be needed at some point. Just trying to work at best option.

 

[carolinaguy]

Wondering if I can pick your brain for more information. I build my pond, has a skimmer, waterfall with filter, pump @4200 gallons per hour, one smaller pump under water. Pond is approximately 3700 gallons, I have five Koi, and all ready they have grown in just three weeks. Next year I will be adding more filtration, and my question is what type would be best for the fish. An extra waterfall, bog etc. I build the pond with the idea each fish needed 1000 gallons full grown but was told I could have more, I don't plan on ever having more than seven fish. I do know extra an filter will be needed at some point. Just trying to work at best option.

Filtration choices are partly preference and partly science. We prefer pressure filtration and plant sumps. I have built my own too, but we switched to pressure for the aesthetics and have surrounded them with architectural fencing I made. Bogs work, our plant sumps work, my British over and under filter worked just fine, bakki showers work. On the science side, install more filtration than you need. One advisor I knew recommended to read the filter rating and use 4 times that amount. He was kind of joking but not really. Our championship ponder uses a 17000 gallon filter in a 5000 pond plus a bakki and a foam fractionator, so he subscribes to the times 4 formula. If you build one make sure that the flow rate through the media meets the 2 gallon per second per square foot standard. In a home made filter, brushes are a powerful feature that I highly recommend. I’m not a real fan of shipping straps because they don’t offer the surface area and may not be bio-film supporting. I absolutely love k-1 kaldnes and the moving bed concept. It not only stays cleaner but also adds powerful oxygen exchange within the media space to promote stronger bacterial colonies. Matala is excellent. If you want to try a new technique developed by one of our club members, northern tool sells 100 and 400 micron oil drum screens that take out fines just like a setus sieve for 20 bucks a screen, and they are durable. Not sure if those ideas answer your question.

 

[Mmathis]

@carolinaguy I’m just curious, but do you work for a pond company? You have all this knowledge and experience, and you’re always talking in the plural (we, us, our), and about different systems that you’ve built, club members, etc., yet you’ve been a member of GPF for several years.......and we’ve never seen a picture of your pond! I don’t mean to sound rude, but I have an image of you like The Lone Ranger (yes, I’m watching it on an oldies channel as we speak, LOL!).....always there to help.....but no one knows who you are!