Pond Build! Upgrading from 400 gallons to 2000 gallons. With Bottom Drain.

[DoDad]

not a good idea to go from Bottom drain to pump

 

[Chinjuspond]

Yeah I was referring to the pile near your new pond, that's a nice find! I sadly have to go rock hunting soon......who would have thought it would be so hard to find rocks? I mean really, like I see one here and one there but like never in a nice little pile lol

for you. I live in the mountains and rocks just come at ya. Lol

 

[Waterbug]

The flow rate of 2500-3500 GPH for 4" drain is generally considered the proper range. Trouble is when you start getting below 2500 dirt is pulled into the pipe but there's not enough flow to pull it up the pipe so it piles up in the pipe and clogs. Depends on the dirt, but generally that seems to be the range professional use. 3" pipe would need 1500-2500 GPH. Of course a 3" pipe is more likely to clog than a 4" from stuff like string algae...but string algae will clog a 4" too.

A bottom drain system has 3 components.

1. A hole in the bottom of the pond connected to a pipe.

2. Water flow that pushes debris to the hole. Sloped sides are not enough by a long shot. The falls won't do it either unless a catch basin is used and then it can act as TPR (thing to sweep the bottom).

3. A filter to remove the debris.

Your design only has #1. Your pump will pull in debris, chop it up making removal harder and send it to a bio filter which just sends the debris back to the pond. So you wouldn't really be accomplishing anything. You could change the bio filter to be a mechanical filter to try and remove some debris, but after being chopped up that's more difficult and cleaning filters isn't much fun. Plus the debris sits in the filter decomposing so water quality is the same since it doesn't matter if poo decomposes in the filter or the bottom of the pond. Unless of course you clean the filter once a day.

So I think you might want to consider a more functional BD system. Or consider a vacuum system. These are pretty simple, like vacuuming a swimming pool. Vacuum for maybe 30 minutes once every 2 weeks in the summer and you'll have a very clean pond.

Functional BD systems are kind of a big deal. They're really more for people keeping large fish loads (lots of big Koi) who want fish to grow fast and big. They feed a lot of food, 2,4,8,12 times a day, multiple pounds of food a week. That kind of waste load really requires a BD system to get waste out of the water 24/7. Water Gardens on the other hand generally don't really need that. And BD systems are not easier to run than vacuums imo. I think vacuuming and BD maintenance are pretty much the same amount of work.

The shelves will collect debris unless they have their own sweeping flow. If these are for plants you might consider isolating the plant area.

That way all the plant crap stays out of the pond. You can still use pond plants and it'll look like they're in the pond, but way less crap in the pond. Some people think marginal type plants remove nutrients or toxins or add O2 but the opposite is true. I love plants around the pond, and I love marginals, but not in the pond.

 

[talal101]

for you. I live in the mountains and rocks just come at ya. Lol

We have mountains here....only 5 hours away lol. Im stuck with the plain round river rock.....

 

[sissy]

Remember every elbow and added height will take away from the gph of your pump .I see a lot of elbows there

 

[max384]

not a good idea to go from Bottom drain to pump

I don't know what you mean by this.

The flow rate of 2500-3500 GPH for 4" drain is generally considered the proper range. Trouble is when you start getting below 2500 dirt is pulled into the pipe but there's not enough flow to pull it up the pipe so it piles up in the pipe and clogs. Depends on the dirt, but generally that seems to be the range professional use. 3" pipe would need 1500-2500 GPH. Of course a 3" pipe is more likely to clog than a 4" from stuff like string algae...but string algae will clog a 4" too.

A bottom drain system has 3 components.

1. A hole in the bottom of the pond connected to a pipe.

2. Water flow that pushes debris to the hole. Sloped sides are not enough by a long shot. The falls won't do it either unless a catch basin is used and then it can act as TPR (thing to sweep the bottom).

3. A filter to remove the debris.

Your design only has #1. Your pump will pull in debris, chop it up making removal harder and send it to a bio filter which just sends the debris back to the pond. So you wouldn't really be accomplishing anything. You could change the bio filter to be a mechanical filter to try and remove some debris, but after being chopped up that's more difficult and cleaning filters isn't much fun. Plus the debris sits in the filter decomposing so water quality is the same since it doesn't matter if poo decomposes in the filter or the bottom of the pond. Unless of course you clean the filter once a day.

So I think you might want to consider a more functional BD system. Or consider a vacuum system. These are pretty simple, like vacuuming a swimming pool. Vacuum for maybe 30 minutes once every 2 weeks in the summer and you'll have a very clean pond.

Functional BD systems are kind of a big deal. They're really more for people keeping large fish loads (lots of big Koi) who want fish to grow fast and big. They feed a lot of food, 2,4,8,12 times a day, multiple pounds of food a week. That kind of waste load really requires a BD system to get waste out of the water 24/7. Water Gardens on the other hand generally don't really need that. And BD systems are not easier to run than vacuums imo. I think vacuuming and BD maintenance are pretty much the same amount of work.

The shelves will collect debris unless they have their own sweeping flow. If these are for plants you might consider isolating the plant area.

That way all the plant crap stays out of the pond. You can still use pond plants and it'll look like they're in the pond, but way less crap in the pond. Some people think marginal type plants remove nutrients or toxins or add O2 but the opposite is true. I love plants around the pond, and I love marginals, but not in the pond.

I've already got the bottom drain ordered in the 4" size, so I'll make do with that. If I run into problems, it's WAY easier to upgrade my pump size than my bottom drain size. If I had read this before making the purchase, I probably would have done 3" though. Thanks for this input though!

What I did on my other pond is to make a kind of combo bio/mechanical filtration system. It was filled with green scratchie pads, which really trapped a bunch of gunk. The water was pumped to the bottom of the filter and then the water filtered through the green scratchy pads as it rose and came out of a drain in the top. Every month or so I'd clean out the gunk on the bottom of the filter with my shop vac. I plan to do basically the same filtration system here, just a bit larger.

I would also vaccum the pond with the shop vac about twice a year. It got to be a pain since it fills up quickly, but water quality and clarity was always top notch. I was hoping that having the bottom drain would make it so that I had to vacuum less often, but if I still have to, that's okay too.

If I'm understanding correctly, a TPR is just water from the pump that is rerouted into the water to create a bit of a vortex of sorts to bring the sediment into the drain? Is this correct?

 

[max384]

Remember every elbow and added height will take away from the gph of your pump .I see a lot of elbows there

I WAY overbought the fittings. I usually buy way more than what I'll need when I do a project and then return what I didn't use at the end of my project. I plan to keep the twists and turns to a minimum.

 

[DoDad]

The bottom drain should go to a settling chamber before the pump. If everything goes through the pump your poop is puree and that.
Even if you put a leaf basket on the pump that will clog pretty quick.
The Puree poop will just feed algae and your clarity and water quality has no where to go but down.

 

[Waterbug]

I've already got the bottom drain ordered in the 4" size, so I'll make do with that. If I run into problems, it's WAY easier to upgrade my pump size than my bottom drain size. If I had read this before making the purchase, I probably would have done 3" though. Thanks for this input though!

Come back for some tips on clearing a clog.

What I did on my other pond is to make a kind of combo bio/mechanical filtration system. It was filled with green scratchie pads, which really trapped a bunch of gunk. The water was pumped to the bottom of the filter and then the water filtered through the green scratchy pads as it rose and came out of a drain in the top. Every month or so I'd clean out the gunk on the bottom of the filter with my shop vac. I plan to do basically the same filtration system here, just a bit larger.

I've read this type of reasoning many times...if any dirt comes out of a filter it's considered to be working. That's perfectly fine, ponds are hobbies for fun so if the owner is happy all is good.

I would also vaccum the pond with the shop vac about twice a year. It got to be a pain since it fills up quickly, but water quality and clarity was always top notch. I was hoping that having the bottom drain would make it so that I had to vacuum less often, but if I still have to, that's okay too.

A shop vac certainly can be used. For this size pond it would be the most difficult way, but yeah it can be done.

I kind of got the impression from your first post you were looking to make it easier to maintain the new pond. I'm a bit confused...you seemed unhappy with water quality in previous pond which was way smaller and easy to clean with a shop vac, so something was stopping you from cleaning that pond, not sure what. The new pond is much bigger and is going to be much harder to clean using the same method. Not sure why you'd think the new pond is going to be cleaner. Unbridled optimism?

Don't want you to get the wrong idea...I learned about ponds the same way. Better to learn by doing. It was, and continues, to be great fun. But since you're posting, asking for advice...and I like writing about ponds, I'm just here for a bit of enjoyment, so I'm just typing, not really trying to convince to change anything. We all do this hobby for different reasons.

Having said that I will relate something I've seen many times in the 15-20 years I've been reading and posting in pond forums, and what I've seen in myself. Probably the hardest thing I ever had to learn. When designing and building a pond and/or filters we get very excited and can see how everything is going to work great. Like I said that's great for people like me who love the process of building and inventing. Unbridled optimism is an important attribute to keep us going. But it can be disappointing for people who don't want to rebuild a pond a few dozen times. Not sure where you're at, but thought I'd mention it for what it's worth. You get a full refund if you don't like me saying that.

If I'm understanding correctly, a TPR is just water from the pump that is rerouted into the water to create a bit of a vortex of sorts to bring the sediment into the drain? Is this correct?

Yes. There are different methods, but yeah, getting a flow to move stuff to the drain. Without that you'll normally see a very small area (few inches) around the drain that's kept clean and the rest of the pond is like there is no drain.

But again, I've read many posts by people who are very happy with this type of deal and they do see dirty water come out of the filter so they think it's working really well which is cool for them. It's the definition of "really well" that changes depending on the owner and pond type.

With Water Gardens a BD system that removes less than 1% of waste is no really that bad because compared to high fish load ponds Water Gardens generate very little waste. And the accumulated waste can be a good thing for insects to grow to feed the fish since some people don't feed fish hardly at all. In Wildlife Ponds people even actively add waste to the pond to support a food chain. Cleaning once a year is more than enough for most Water Gardens to keep fish alive and doing well.

In ponds where 5 lbs of food is being tossed in every week BD systems are really needed to keep expensive fish alive and so these details are important. From what I've read you're not planning to have Koi or to feed a lot if you are so I wouldn't worry too much about how well any of these systems work. And it does sound like you are enjoying the process and that's really what it's all about.

 

[sissy]

If you have a wet vac all you have to do is put a hose on the outlet side and run hose into a laundry basket right back into the pond .I would guess all shop vacs are the same ,not sure though .I know i used mine like that ,but was so worried about sucking up fish .Even tried screen on the inlet side

 

[max384]

The bottom drain should go to a settling chamber before the pump. If everything goes through the pump your poop is puree and that.
Even if you put a leaf basket on the pump that will clog pretty quick.
The Puree poop will just feed algae and your clarity and water quality has no where to go but down.

Boy, this thing is turning into a bigger job than I had anticipated. I guess it wouldn't be too big of a job to bury a settling chamber...

Come back for some tips on clearing a clog.


I've read this type of reasoning many times...if any dirt comes out of a filter it's considered to be working. That's perfectly fine, ponds are hobbies for fun so if the owner is happy all is good.


A shop vac certainly can be used. For this size pond it would be the most difficult way, but yeah it can be done.

I kind of got the impression from your first post you were looking to make it easier to maintain the new pond. I'm a bit confused...you seemed unhappy with water quality in previous pond which was way smaller and easy to clean with a shop vac, so something was stopping you from cleaning that pond, not sure what. The new pond is much bigger and is going to be much harder to clean using the same method. Not sure why you'd think the new pond is going to be cleaner. Unbridled optimism?

I had excellent water quality in my other pond. Water tests were always perfect and the water was crystal clear... The winter wreaked havoc on my pond and I'm left with a stagnant mess. I decided to build a new pond instead of fixing the damage to the current one. I assume water quality will be the same or better because I'm putting more filtration on this one, adding a skimmer, and from all I've read on here, larger ponds seem to "run themselves" more than smaller ones.

Don't want you to get the wrong idea...I learned about ponds the same way. Better to learn by doing. It was, and continues, to be great fun. But since you're posting, asking for advice...and I like writing about ponds, I'm just here for a bit of enjoyment, so I'm just typing, not really trying to convince to change anything. We all do this hobby for different reasons.

Having said that I will relate something I've seen many times in the 15-20 years I've been reading and posting in pond forums, and what I've seen in myself. Probably the hardest thing I ever had to learn. When designing and building a pond and/or filters we get very excited and can see how everything is going to work great. Like I said that's great for people like me who love the process of building and inventing. Unbridled optimism is an important attribute to keep us going. But it can be disappointing for people who don't want to rebuild a pond a few dozen times. Not sure where you're at, but thought I'd mention it for what it's worth. You get a full refund if you don't like me saying that.


Yes. There are different methods, but yeah, getting a flow to move stuff to the drain. Without that you'll normally see a very small area (few inches) around the drain that's kept clean and the rest of the pond is like there is no drain.

But again, I've read many posts by people who are very happy with this type of deal and they do see dirty water come out of the filter so they think it's working really well which is cool for them. It's the definition of "really well" that changes depending on the owner and pond type.

With Water Gardens a BD system that removes less than 1% of waste is no really that bad because compared to high fish load ponds Water Gardens generate very little waste. And the accumulated waste can be a good thing for insects to grow to feed the fish since some people don't feed fish hardly at all. In Wildlife Ponds people even actively add waste to the pond to support a food chain. Cleaning once a year is more than enough for most Water Gardens to keep fish alive and doing well.

In ponds where 5 lbs of food is being tossed in every week BD systems are really needed to keep expensive fish alive and so these details are important. From what I've read you're not planning to have Koi or to feed a lot if you are so I wouldn't worry too much about how well any of these systems work. And it does sound like you are enjoying the process and that's really what it's all about.

I think I will add a settling tank and maybe a mechanical filter after the settling tank before the pump. Thanks for the advice on this. I don't think I'll do the TPR though... At least not yet. I'd imagine retrofitting a pump to spin the water later wouldn't be too hard if I find later that I'm unhappy without one.

I am planning on putting in a few small koi and what's left of my shubunkins. It won't be a high fish load, but I will definitely have fish. I'm also not going to be doing a high feeding schedule to grow my koi quickly. I will be moving in four years guaranteed. So, by the time my koi are getting big I'll be buying a new house and putting in a bigger pond with more upgrades after having experience with this upgraded pond.

I appreciate all the advice. Even though I'm not going to be doing everything you've suggested, I appreciate you taking the time... and maybe I'll eventually wish I had done everything you suggested!

If you have a wet vac all you have to do is put a hose on the outlet side and run hose into a laundry basket right back into the pond .I would guess all shop vacs are the same ,not sure though .I know i used mine like that ,but was so worried about sucking up fish .Even tried screen on the inlet side

Hmmm. I'll have to look at mine later. I always just let it fill up and then empty it. I don't know if it has that ability. That would certainly make it easier!

I never sucked up a fish fortunately. They scattered when I put that in the water!

 

[max384]

I got a little bit done today. I collected a few more rocks and put in the biofilter trashcan housing. I built a rough outline of the stream leading into the pond. I've become painfully aware that I'm going to have to get some fill dirt, since I've already used up all of the dirt from digging the pond and still need more to build up around the biofilter and stream so that this small steep-sided hill doesn't look out of place. I also still need more for filling in the old pond. Ugh.

 

[max384]

I decided to return the 2000 gallon pump for a 4200 gallon pump since I was going with the 4" bottom drain, and the price difference between the two wasn't all that drastic.

Okay... So what are my options here? I've read up a bit on settlement tanks, and I just don't have the room for a 400 gallon settlement tank. The only place it might fit would be right next to my pond, but frankly that would be unsightly IMO. Is my only choice a mechanical prefilter that will have to be changed frequently? If that's what I have to do, I guess that's what I'll do... But it'd be nice if there were another option.

Thanks for all the [frustrating!!] advice here guys!

 

[j.w]

Looking good and you are progressing nicely.................must be from all the good work from the helpers

 

[max384]

The bottom drain doesn't arrive in the mail until Monday, so that's been really keeping me from making much progress. I scavenged a five-wheel barrow load of dirt and some more rocks, including some river rocks. I also stopped by my Dad's house and he had an extra 55 gallon barrel he needed to get rid of. Score! I'm replacing the 32 gallon trash can with the barrel for my biofilter now.

A very large portion of my yard is now dominated by rocks!! I need this pond to be up and running so I can reclaim my yard!

I think I'll rehome all of the surviving fish and snails from my old pond into the trash can tomorrow. Then I'll drain the pond and fill in the hole with dirt. It's starting to get difficult to work around the pond now.