Periodic fish deaths

[pineapple]

Water quality
* Ammonia Level (pond) - 0ppm
* Nitrite Level (pond) - 0ppm
* Ammonia Level (tap water) - 0ppm
* Nitrite Level (tap water) - 0ppm
* Ph Level, pond (If possible, KH, GH and chlorine) - varies, testing as low as 8.0 to 9.0. Today reading 8.2. KH: 107.4 GH: 143.2
* Ph Level, tap water (If possible, KH, GH and chlorine). - tested multiple times with different kits, not getting a consistent reading (!) 7.6 with pool kit. 7.0 and 8.0 with wide range pH test kit. Cl: <0ppm.
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Range of API drop tests (pH wide range + high range, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, phosphate, KH, GH).


Other useful information:
* Water temperature? 24 C
* Pond size and how long has it been running? - estimated 4,500L (about 1200 gal). We have been looking after it for about two years, not sure how long the previous owner kept it.
* What is the name and size of the filter(s)? Oase Filtoclear 15,000. Supplemented with an air pump + 4 golf ball sized air stones, apparently 1200 Litres per hour from the pump.
* How often do you change the water and how much? Less than 20% per change for a big change. Changing every 2-4 weeks depending on water quality.
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday, less than 10% (vacuuming and replacing about 200L of water)
* How many fish in the pond and their type? - 11 big comets/shubunkin (up to 15cm), 4 big koi, approximately 10 small comets/shubunkin (less than 10cm)
* What kind of water additives or conditioners have you used? Prime - adding with each top up of water
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Aqua One Economy Pellets - once every few days, aiming for what the fish can eat within 1 minute or so
* Any new fish added to the pond recently? Last added a couple of months ago - 2 of the large comets, 3 small shubunkin
* Any medications added to the pond? Recently added API Algaefix (every 3 days to weekly for a recent blanketweed problem, now under control).
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and pond - Routinely adding beneficial bacteria. Sometimes product called Splosht, other times a 3-in-1 blanketweed competing bacteria that also contains barley extract.
* Any unusual findings on the fish? Recent deaths and illness .
* Any unusual behaviour like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Described below.

I've had a few individual fish deaths lately and I want to learn if there's anything more I can be doing for the goldies.

• First death was from lowish water level - a big goldie managed to beach himself in a pot and scraped himself up badly. Tried to save him in a quarrantine bucket with a small air stone + some Melafix/antiobiotics, but unfortunately this fish grew what looked like a white fungal infection and I couldn't save him. I'm putting this one down to bad luck.
• After clearing out the water and topping up, floating dead goldfish the same week. Had kind of white, glazed eyes - not sure how long he had been gone for, but everything looked intact, no weird injuries. I wondered if this was due to an oxygen drop (high temperature + recently adding bacteria) so installed an airpump as a safety net.
• Have had a little comet disappear, but I think a local Kookaburras might have decided it looked like a good snack.
• This week I have noticed one of the bigger comets seems to have developed dropsy (pinecone appearance, extremely bloated). He continues to have an appetite and swell well, although doesn't seem to be getting any smaller. After my bad luck trying to quarrantine and treat the last fish, I am hesitant to pull this one out.
• Last but not least, I found a dead big goldy yesterday, hiding behind a rock. Oddly this time, he had no rear tail (it was basically completely missing), and missing part of the cheek. Dark across the belly too. Hard to determine what might have caused this death - perhaps fin rot for some time and has been hiding away?

There are some unusual things with pond lately too:

• When it hit summer, there was suddenly a massive string algae outbreak - it good really dense. I quickly tried to bring this under control with algaefix and manually scooping/vacuuming the dead stuff out. This seems to have come under control now.
• The pH seems to run consistently high and I am worried this is a problem. Not sure if the extra aeration could be contributing to this or not. On bad days, it can hit close to 9.0 on a drop kit (wide range/high range).

It feels a bit out of balance at the moment. Every time I test though, all the quality numbers come up fine - apart from the high pH. Could this be my culprit?

Anyway, would be interested in people's thoughts, I think there is a lot I can learn here!

 

[Marck]

This a good post. I like the way you comprehensively listed all of your pond conditions.
Still, it seems like your fish may have died for a variety of reasons.
If the Kookaburras are fishing, that could explain the tailless fish, and maybe even the beached fish.

 

[brokensword]

Water quality
* Ammonia Level (pond) - 0ppm
* Nitrite Level (pond) - 0ppm
* Ammonia Level (tap water) - 0ppm
* Nitrite Level (tap water) - 0ppm
* Ph Level, pond (If possible, KH, GH and chlorine) - varies, testing as low as 8.0 to 9.0. Today reading 8.2. KH: 107.4 GH: 143.2
* Ph Level, tap water (If possible, KH, GH and chlorine). - tested multiple times with different kits, not getting a consistent reading (!) 7.6 with pool kit. 7.0 and 8.0 with wide range pH test kit. Cl: <0ppm.
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Range of API drop tests (pH wide range + high range, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, phosphate, KH, GH).


Other useful information:
* Water temperature? 24 C
* Pond size and how long has it been running? - estimated 4,500L (about 1200 gal). We have been looking after it for about two years, not sure how long the previous owner kept it.
* What is the name and size of the filter(s)? Oase Filtoclear 15,000. Supplemented with an air pump + 4 golf ball sized air stones, apparently 1200 Litres per hour from the pump.
* How often do you change the water and how much? Less than 20% per change for a big change. Changing every 2-4 weeks depending on water quality.
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday, less than 10% (vacuuming and replacing about 200L of water)
* How many fish in the pond and their type? - 11 big comets/shubunkin (up to 15cm), 4 big koi, approximately 10 small comets/shubunkin (less than 10cm)
* What kind of water additives or conditioners have you used? Prime - adding with each top up of water
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Aqua One Economy Pellets - once every few days, aiming for what the fish can eat within 1 minute or so
* Any new fish added to the pond recently? Last added a couple of months ago - 2 of the large comets, 3 small shubunkin
* Any medications added to the pond? Recently added API Algaefix (every 3 days to weekly for a recent blanketweed problem, now under control).
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and pond - Routinely adding beneficial bacteria. Sometimes product called Splosht, other times a 3-in-1 blanketweed competing bacteria that also contains barley extract.
* Any unusual findings on the fish? Recent deaths and illness .
* Any unusual behaviour like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Described below.

I've had a few individual fish deaths lately and I want to learn if there's anything more I can be doing for the goldies.

• First death was from lowish water level - a big goldie managed to beach himself in a pot and scraped himself up badly. Tried to save him in a quarrantine bucket with a small air stone + some Melafix/antiobiotics, but unfortunately this fish grew what looked like a white fungal infection and I couldn't save him. I'm putting this one down to bad luck.
• After clearing out the water and topping up, floating dead goldfish the same week. Had kind of white, glazed eyes - not sure how long he had been gone for, but everything looked intact, no weird injuries. I wondered if this was due to an oxygen drop (high temperature + recently adding bacteria) so installed an airpump as a safety net.
• Have had a little comet disappear, but I think a local Kookaburras might have decided it looked like a good snack.
• This week I have noticed one of the bigger comets seems to have developed dropsy (pinecone appearance, extremely bloated). He continues to have an appetite and swell well, although doesn't seem to be getting any smaller. After my bad luck trying to quarrantine and treat the last fish, I am hesitant to pull this one out.
• Last but not least, I found a dead big goldy yesterday, hiding behind a rock. Oddly this time, he had no rear tail (it was basically completely missing), and missing part of the cheek. Dark across the belly too. Hard to determine what might have caused this death - perhaps fin rot for some time and has been hiding away?

There are some unusual things with pond lately too:

• When it hit summer, there was suddenly a massive string algae outbreak - it good really dense. I quickly tried to bring this under control with algaefix and manually scooping/vacuuming the dead stuff out. This seems to have come under control now.
• The pH seems to run consistently high and I am worried this is a problem. Not sure if the extra aeration could be contributing to this or not. On bad days, it can hit close to 9.0 on a drop kit (wide range/high range).

It feels a bit out of balance at the moment. Every time I test though, all the quality numbers come up fine - apart from the high pH. Could this be my culprit?

Anyway, would be interested in people's thoughts, I think there is a lot I can learn here!

wow, not even sure how to start this. Maybe by applauding your love of pizza and your acceptance of pineapple on pizza eaters.

Okay, short answer? You're over stocked. This is the general rule of thumb; ONE koi for the first 1000 gallons, and 250-500 for each additional. That all by itself is giving you much of your problem.

Next, all the additives you're using are unnecessary. For instance, I've never used a chem yet and unless your tap water has chlorine/chloramine in it, you don't even need dechlor. And I have FORTY TWO koi (not any larger yet than 16") and over 100 gf, sized on average of 10" in 7000 gallons of water, with a bog, 3 waterfalls, an aerator and a partridge in a pear tree.

I have a hard time believing all your water params are zero; just having the string algae alone tells me your water should test high in nitrates, or at least test SOMETHING.

All the 'beneficial bacteria' you're buying is a waste of your money. A pond already has the necessary bits but you need to have patience so they colonize AND give them a place to do it. That is, the MORE surface area, and forcing water over/under/through it will give the bacteria a chance to filter for you. This is where my suggestion of a bog filter comes in.

Next, your feeding habit is fine.

Why are you vacuuming debris out? What is getting in that is such a nuisance? That too should show on your water tests.

String algae is a product of too many nutrients; see point 1. Algae, in any form despite your nonacceptance is still helping fight bad water conditions for your fish. It is a symptom, NOT the problem.

pH being STABLE is the important part. Changes from pH of 8 to 9 is like an increase of concentration of 100, so NO SWINGING pH.

Lastly, Prime is a TEMPORARY fix; after 48 hours, it'll release the ammonia. Again, if your ammonia test is zero, how are you needing Prime?

Okay, best solution is to rehome fish, asap, or enlarge their home. Whichever is easier. Otherwise, nature is going to fix your problem for you and it's not one you're going to like. You MIGHT end up with the hardiest of your goldfish, maybe.

A well balanced pond doesn't need any water changes.

If you invest time/energy into bog filtration, some of this will go a way, but you're still overstocked, imo.

Sorry; hope you get your pond squared away.

 

[pineapple]

Wow, thank you for such a quick and comprehensive response!

I should add also, I had a couple of fish seemingly "gasping" near the surface before I added the extra air. But this gets back to the same issue: sounds like overstocking.

At the local aquarium I had been convinced by the people in the shop that the params are so low because the pond is "so big" that it wasn't cycling. Their recommendation was to...add fish. Oh dear.

I too am confused about the low readings. I do vacuuming because there is a heavy leaf load, and often get a thick, black, unsightly layer of sludge at the bottom of the pond and have been removing this under the assumption that it was bad (not just ugly). But with a layer that thick, and so many leaves, I would have expected SOME phosphates, not to mention amonia. Could it be possible I have a bad drop kit? Or do I need to take my sample from the very bottom layer of the pond?

I add Prime as our local water is Chlorinated. I was also told when I first started out that it can be helpful in building up the goldfish slime coat. Not sure now if this was just a sales pitch...

I might see if I can up the filtration in the long term, but it seems for now the number one rule will be no more fish (and no more listening to the guys that the shop...)

 

[pineapple]

If the Kookaburras are fishing, that could explain the tailless fish, and maybe even the beached fish.

I had not connected the dots here - perhaps some of these losses could be from birds picking up and dropping the fish? I might need to invest in some counter measures...

 

[brokensword]

Wow, thank you for such a quick and comprehensive response!

I should add also, I had a couple of fish seemingly "gasping" near the surface before I added the extra air. But this gets back to the same issue: sounds like overstocking.

At the local aquarium I had been convinced by the people in the shop that the params are so low because the pond is "so big" that it wasn't cycling. Their recommendation was to...add fish. Oh dear.

I too am confused about the low readings. I do vacuuming because there is a heavy leaf load, and often get a thick, black, unsightly layer of sludge at the bottom of the pond and have been removing this under the assumption that it was bad (not just ugly). But with a layer that thick, and so many leaves, I would have expected SOME phosphates, not to mention amonia. Could it be possible I have a bad drop kit? Or do I need to take my sample from the very bottom layer of the pond?

I add Prime as our local water is Chlorinated. I was also told when I first started out that it can be helpful in building up the goldfish slime coat. Not sure now if this was just a sales pitch...

I might see if I can up the filtration in the long term, but it seems for now the number one rule will be no more fish (and no more listening to the guys that the shop...)

You're welcome; the Boss likes it when we're complete around here...not that I can't get off topic, heh heh

Okay, yes, gasping at surface is lack of O2; already addressed above.

Cycles vary but with a few fish and average feeding, I'd expect it to be done in a month. Maybe less, maybe a bit more; sort of depends on your particular circumstances.

You don't have to take the water from the bottom; 12" down should be fine. Take a few samples and test to see if there's any variance.

I do doubt your test kit; you HAVE to have some numbers with all you've told us. A current liquid test kit works best. Those around here suggest using API as they've proven reliable.

The leaves; yes, SLOWLY net them out. If you have that much issue, consider a leaf net as decaying organics is going to sink you fast, even if you are normal stocked.

The black sludge; could be and probably IS bad, but there's many forms/colors of algae and it might be just that. I'd probably remove it (slowly so as not to disturb the bottom much). Algae should normally be green/brown and IS good for your pond; the surface-grabbing type. The free floating type as seen in your pics (and is VERY common with new ponds --we call it NPS; new pond syndrome) is unsightly to YOU but it's actually helping rid your water of all the bad things, like ammonia and nitrates. Soooo, while 'cycling', you may indeed have green water. With correct balancing and some patience, this dissipates. Now, without a lot of plants, you may always have some 'green' but the idea here is to NOT have it. Filtering, btw, will NOT remove this free single cell variety because it's too small. What you want to do with that is have lots of plants, as mentioned, because they will outcompete the algae for the available nutrients in your water. So, I forget, but I did suggest a bog filter. We like 'em here because they're huge biofilters that you put plants in to keep such as green water from happening. This allows you to get the type plants you want and all that pea gravel IN a bog filter will provide the biofiltration I think you're missing. Do a search here 'bog' and you'll see all sorts of help and pics. It's really not hard but is a 'different' way of filtering than you're probably used to. Certainly no pond/fish outlet is going to promote this as once in, there's no upsale or replacement parts they can sell you. And once in, all you do is thin out the plants every now and then. Easy peasy.


The aquarium shop is incorrect; you should still get readings; it's not like the 'bad' stuff is sitting in a corner avoiding being tested. As long as you have circulation, the water should be uniform, more or less. Now taking pH readings CAN vary, morning to noon to night but it should not be flipping all over and back and forth a whole point.

Re the Prime; yes, I forgot it also takes out the chlorine/chloramines, so yes, keep using when you add water. It might also help with the stress coat but as I mentioned, I have lots of fish and don't add anything; so not needed imo. I thought you were using it for any ammonia buildup, which it might have been doing but if you don't change out the water/take care of the ammonia source, it gets released back. IOW, you're in a vicious cycle trying to get the water balanced. Again, patience and lots of plants (hopefully in a bog but they don't have to be; they can be floaters) are your friend.

So, I'd do a water change (yeah, I know, I say I never do them and hardly ever advise this but you need to get that water back to something liveable for the fish) and yeah, you have too many fish which is just hurting your efforts as they still eat something and still add to the bioload thereafter with their poop. I'd say do a third water change, using your prime. Take readings (on a verified kit) first, then do the change. Wait a day, take more tests; your parameters should be better. Then do another water change if the numbers are anywhere near concerning. Wait, watch, see if the fish respond positively. You still have the overstock and probably underfilter issue to solve but IF you can re-home fish, you'll be that much further ahead.

And I know it's hard to see your babies go but you'll need a LOT of effort to even try keeping fish this way. See, koi grow, they can get to be 30+ inches and they put out an almost exponential amount of organics as they do. Easy to keep 5" fish but a lot harder when they triple or more in size.

If you still have leaves in the pond, DO get them out, SLOWLY netting and try not disturbing the bottom as much as you can. Decaying leaves like that can emit a toxic gas when stirred. Hard to say if you have this issue without testing myself, but just go slow and if there IS any gas, it can be released slowly too.

I know this is a lot; read the other threads about any of the subjects I've brought up; you'll get better insights to exactly what is going on with your fish. We like to see success stories and will give you our opinions freely; just ask. And we like to keep it simple, so once you get on the right track, it should be a lot easier all the way around.

Good Luck!

 

[Dimelius]

Brokensword alrdy wrote "the bible" so follow his words.
choose if want only kois or only goldfishes or maybe a mix...then we can help you to choose right number and ou find new home for others.

 

[WaterGardener]

Good advice from Brokensword.

I've never heard of Prime increasing slime coat and I seriously doubt that statement. Slime coat is increased by something in the water that is irritating the fish. How is that a good thing? I'm not sure why people feel the slime coat needs to be enhanced. Fish seem to be fine with the coat they naturally have.

I think there have been problems with people using algaecides and having fish die. Algae lives on ammonia so it can be a good thing for a new pond. Getting rid of it exposes your fish to that toxin.

You really don't need to add any chemicals to the pond except Prime. The bacteria you have been adding is not the type you need for cycling the pond. That bacteria needs oxygen to live and it can't survive the time it takes to bottle, ship, and sit on a shelf until someone buys it and opens the top. As Brokensword said, it's a waste of money.

There is bacteria you can buy that is supposed to break down the sludge at the bottom of the pond, but what you have been adding isn't doing that either. So save your money.

I too have to question your test results. You only need the high range pH with your pH in those upper levels.

You would be wise to never listen to clerks in pet stores. I'm sure there must be truly knowledgeable ones somewhere, but I have never run across one. Their purpose is to sell you something, so if they convince you to purchase a product that kills all your fish, even though they didn't do that intentionally, you will have to buy more fish. A win/win for them.

 

[addy1]

You're welcome; the Boss likes it when we're complete around here...not that I can't get off topic, heh heh

Brokensword alrdy wrote "the bible" so follow his words.

That is why we keep you around! @brokensword when you focus you focus well!

Keeps us from needing to type a lot lol....................

@pineapple great post about your pond and issues. Really helps us help you. I agree with the being overstocked

I have only shubunkins, I let them breed freely with some control. IE I don't feed a lot during spawning. With a huge bog type filter my pond can handle the fish load and my pond is big.

I have a 1000 gallon pond with only shubbies in it, around 30ish, but the water that is in that pond is a constant flow in and out. It is part of the water flow of the big pond. So I do not worry about fish load. The heron wiped out about 1/2 of the fish one year. Just now repopulating, via eggs/ fry that make it through the pump etc. I counted around 30 various sizes.

 

[j.w]

Great responses here to @pineapple 's problems. I hope all of this will help you and sorry you may have to give away some of you fish but it appears it may be for the best......................or you could start digging and build yourself a way bigger pond We hope to hear that things are going to get better and hope you stick around and learn lots of good ways to keep your pond and fish healthy.

 

[pineapple]

heron wiped out about 1/2 of the fish one year

This is what lead to our overstocking problem! We had a big bird (not seen since) spend a morning devouring half our pond. We might have become a little carried away with the replacements...

hope you stick around and learn lots of good ways to keep your pond and fish healthy.

Thank you, that's definitely the plan!

You would be wise to never listen to clerks in pet stores.

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it! Now I have found a forum like this I don't need to listen to the people with a vested interest in selling me both the problem and the solution...
Actually the same guys that recommended more fish recommended a second filter/pump for aeration. Guess what gets clogged up in the space of a week and I spend my time cleaning out each weekend? Oops.

And I know it's hard to see your babies go but you'll need a LOT of effort to even try keeping fish this way.

Thank you, yes this nails it in one. Thank you for the extensive advice, I've been reading over it all again and again to process and absorb. I think there's a little of rookie lessons to take from all this!

I am very tempted to add an external bog filter to maximise the load the pond can handle, but even with that, going by rule of thumb it sounds like my 4,500L is probably only meant to house about 1 and a quarter koi? I didn't realise these guys were quite that polluting! Also explains why the time spent tending to the pond has gone through the roof, I have to put in an hour weekly to try stay on top of things.

Any benefit in running a mechanical filter PLUS external bog? I'm thinking the biggest size I'll probably get away with is about 15% in the short term (based on where I can fit it for now).

We actually want to do a garden renovation at some stage, which I think will be an opportunity to reconsider the pond design significantly. Given it's a hard bottom pond without a liner (looks like concrete with stones embedded) expanding it won't be an option, but I might be able to build a bog up a layer in a container and replace the current (ugly) fountain area.

 

[brokensword]

Any benefit in running a mechanical filter PLUS external bog? I'm thinking the biggest size I'll probably get away with is about 15% in the short term (based on where I can fit it for now).

We actually want to do a garden renovation at some stage, which I think will be an opportunity to reconsider the pond design significantly. Given it's a hard bottom pond without a liner (looks like concrete with stones embedded) expanding it won't be an option, but I might be able to build a bog up a layer in a container and replace the current (ugly) fountain area.

yes, there is benefit; it's something I do now. I have a mech pre-bog filter (2 actually; one for each pump and each pre-bog filter feeds the bog). If you've ever kept saltwater or even tropical fish, you may be familiar with my setup as that's where I got it. What I have is two 55 gall barrels with a 'sock filter' in them. The water goes into the sock, flows through the sock, filtering whatever micron sized particle I choose, and then out to the bog. I think I've got diagams somewhere; I'll attach to my showcase on the morrow for you.

This mech filter is only a safety as the bog doesn't need it per se, but I had my bog v1 get clogged and cleaning it was anything but fun. Can you say 'dig it all up and hose it all down'? I didn't build it correctly, didn't understand how to clean it easier, and so, I learned.

There's a chart, somewhere on GPF (@Lisak1 ; can you resuurect it?) that shows the output of fish (koi) as they grow; it's eye opening!

 

[pineapple]

There's a chart, somewhere on GPF (@Lisak1 ; can you resuurect it?) that shows the output of fish (koi) as they grow; it's eye opening!

I think I found it! (https://russellwatergardens.com/pages/koi-length-and-weight)
Gee, they really ramp up the waste quick.

Gives me another starting point for calculating how much load I can get away with (i.e. how many I am going to be able to keep...)

 

[brokensword]

We actually want to do a garden renovation at some stage, which I think will be an opportunity to reconsider the pond design significantly. Given it's a hard bottom pond without a liner (looks like concrete with stones embedded) expanding it won't be an option, but I might be able to build a bog up a layer in a container and replace the current (ugly) fountain area.

you probably could add to this, but it would take someone understanding HOW to build concrete ponds. I imagine you'd be cutting one portion/wall of your pond, either then use rebar and more concrete to attach one part to a new part, OR, use a liner and have the concrete walls you have PLUS the soil walls of the new dig portion to hold all the water. This actually gives you a better pond, imo, as the liner isn't ever going to crack and leak on you. It is definitely something I'd do as well within reason.

Just as example; my pond was initially 2500 gallons, approx 14' x 6' x 44" deep. I only had goldfish, over 100 btw, and then, I made 'your' mistake; I got into koi. Sooooo, once I lost one of my first 3 koi, the writing was on the wall; time to expand. See, I DO understand NOT getting rid of your babies! The 'expansion' took this form; I dug a 8'x14'x5' deep hole that was outside my pondhouse. There was 3' of 'garden' between them. I took down the one wall, built a structure to contain the new, joined the two, then tackled joining pond 1 to pond 2. I have pics, if interested, in my showcase. Suffice it to say, it was interesting. I had to catch, hold in the new all the fish, AFTER having rolled 1/2 the liner into the new, then storing it between pond parts, THEN dig out the 3' of soil (which only got dug out halfway), rolled the rest of the liner into place, then filled the pond up proper.

Realize, ALL this was done with walls surrounding and mature vegetation in place. Made it a bit hard to finagle but well, I'm glad I did it. This whole story is to inspire YOU to consider expanding YOUR pond to get what YOU want/need. I can see it being done!

 

[brokensword]

I think I found it! (https://russellwatergardens.com/pages/koi-length-and-weight)
Gee, they really ramp up the waste quick.

Gives me another starting point for calculating how much load I can get away with (i.e. how many I am going to be able to keep...)

read my other reply; you DO have another option!!!