New pond liner and filter advice please?

[combatwombat]

I've done extensive research on wetland filtration and some research on anoxic. Most people on "other forums" (I'm pretty sure you mean koiphen!) seem to not like bog filters because:

1. They used to be designed really poorly. Instead of improving design, they moved onto other solutions.

2. Bogs have to be massive to properly filter a dedicated koi pond, and no one who has a DKP wants to give that kind of space to filtration when they could just make the pond bigger and stuff more fish in it.

3. They're not expensive or high-tech enough. I'm not even joking about this. There is a pervasive mindset in the DKP world that is biased towards technology and allergic to anything "natural." If it doesn't look like it belongs in a NASA control room, it's not good enough.

No filter is perfect, though, and there is some truth to the criticism of the bog filter. Folks who have cloudy water and then suddenly clear water after installing a bog filter have that because the bog is now doing fine mechanical filtration (ie. clogging your filter). Might work forever if you're lucky, but doesn't work for DKP folks trying to stretch the limit of how many lbs. of fish you can fit in a gallon of water.

And if you want a lot of messy fish like koi, then you need a lot of filtration, and NASA-style tech can do what a bog can do in a tiny fraction of the space. Requires a lot more maintenance, though.

So, if you understand the mindset of the DKPers and garden ponders, you can start to understand why each group has its biases. These are very different types of ponds where the same solutions are not always appropriate.

As for anoxic, I think it's a great idea. It's very "bog like" in that it's easy to construct and also easy to pull apart and maintain should you ever need to.

If you want crystal clear water, though, you'll really need to have your prefiltration dialed with anoxic, as the substrate won't be doing any mechanical filtration for you.

Most garden ponds have pretty weak prefilters and end up with crystal clear water because their bogs are doing the rest of the work (a "no no" in the DKP world).

 

[addy1]

Thank you.
Seems a lot of advice comes from people who have never had a bog so reading your thread and what you have just said makes me confident!
Why do you turn off in the winter?

We freeze here and I have a lot of surface area in the bog. It brings the temperature down on the pond when we get cold. And I have a external pump, if the power goes out it freezes and dies. And if it does not go out and we have some real cold weather I could get a ice dam that will drain the pond.

I actually enjoy the pond down time. In the spring fire it up, every time it runs with no issue, pond becomes crystal clear within a few days. Usually the bog plants have started growing before I even get it fired up.

 

[brokensword]

Getting close to finishing my bog!!!!
There seems to be conflicts on types of pea gravel. Some good for fish some not. Any advice?
Also one or two people on other forums say steer clear of bog filters as they can clog up and become anaerobic.
Some have mentioned Anoxic filtration so anybody used this method?
I will still press forward with my bog tho!
Have any of you had trouble with clogging and ammonia levels? Also could you use a pre filter to remove some solids or will that render the bog useless?
Chris

I prefilter, mainly because I wanted to get rid of the fines, but you'll not starve the bog; the bacteria there will still get their ammonia for conversion. I don't NEED to prefilter but since I have an underwater cam (which just died, btw), I'd rather see the fish better as the fines clutter the feed as well as reflect any sunlight.

You CAN include a cleanout system for you bog (it's what I've done, as well as others) if you're worried re clogging. Sort of an insurance policy that hopefully you'll never use.

Re bog gravel; use 3/8 pea gravel (or at least, smooth, rounded stone--NOT anything that has an edge as this type will compress and lock together, foiling the bog's process of 'upflow wetland filtration'.

 

[GBBUDD]

Getting close to finishing my bog!!!!
There seems to be conflicts on types of pea gravel. Some good for fish some not. Any advice?
Also one or two people on other forums say steer clear of bog filters as they can clog up and become anaerobic.
Some have mentioned Anoxic filtration so anybody used this method?
I will still press forward with my bog tho!
Have any of you had trouble with clogging and ammonia levels? Also could you use a pre filter to remove some solids or will that render the bog useless?
Chris

I was just doing some small reading on the anoxic filter i can assure you. Its going to clog faster then a bog. From what i saw anyways i didn't disect it all they seemed to do was to use clay a plant and a pot. We all know clay is beneficial but it does fall apart. And fluorite i used as my substrate in my planted tank. Its a chip form in the clay family substrate. So other then that method giving plants what they grow in i don't see an advantage the bog being STONE it has no benefit to plants it just channels the water and gives plants a base to root in. The plants then are forced to take what they need to survive from the water ONLY the fish waste , plant decay. And if you saw the mound literally 3 feet high 6 feet wide of plants i just ripped out . There's no lack nutrients. Heck look for your self 4 years old and only seems to get better every year. I honestly think the koi anti bogers don't want to believe they spend all the time and money on the filtration systems when if you give mother nature a stage shell out stage you every time.

 

[combatwombat]

@GBBUDD: plants are optional in anoxic filtration, same as bog. The ammonia conversion takes place via the attraction between negatively and positively charged atoms as they pass through the filter.

 

[GBBUDD]

Like i said i didn't disect it if i add anything to my set up it will be ozone . The pond is clear as any fresh water ponds around here probably more so by ten fold but it doesn't have the polish. The folks in south america are big on ozone probably because of the prolonged warm weather.

 

[combatwombat]

Like i said i didn't disect it if i add anything to my set up it will be ozone . The pond is clear as any fresh water ponds around here probably more so by ten fold but it doesn't have the polish. The folks in south america are big on ozone probably because of the prolonged warm weather.

Thought I read that ozone is bad for fish?

 

[wamil]

You CAN include a cleanout system for you bog (it's what I've done, as well as others) if you're worried re clogging.

I've read a few threads and from what I understand, you create a hollow cavity below the gravel, at the bog's lowest point, and include a 'snorkel' to stick a pump down there while piping water into the bog to remove any accumulated crap. However, there's a lot of terminology I'm unfamiliar with, so I'm just not sure if I have the right idea. I want to make sure I have an accurate picture in my head before I shovel tons of gravel onto the system haha.

Are there any recommended resources on how to do this that have pictures/diagrams and go into specifics? I've never really done any plumbing so I need a real 'for idiots' guide.

 

[GBBUDD]

Gluing pvc is very easy just don't let anyone talk you out of using the primer . All to many folks will skip the primer and have the joint fail down the road. As far as plumbing goes pond builds are pretty easy.

 

[brokensword]

I've read a few threads and from what I understand, you create a hollow cavity below the gravel, at the bog's lowest point, and include a 'snorkel' to stick a pump down there while piping water into the bog to remove any accumulated crap. However, there's a lot of terminology I'm unfamiliar with, so I'm just not sure if I have the right idea. I want to make sure I have an accurate picture in my head before I shovel tons of gravel onto the system haha.

Are there any recommended resources on how to do this that have pictures/diagrams and go into specifics? I've never really done any plumbing so I need a real 'for idiots' guide.

yep, you have the right idea. A key is to make sure your 'snorkel' is large enough for your pump. Also, IF you ever have to do this, you need the force like that from your pond pump to loosen from the TOP, forcing the debris that is clogging the BOTTOM of your pea gravel layer so it flows toward this lowest point where your aux pump is waiting. I was told by a pond professional it typically takes 2-3 flushings to get clear water only. I made the mistake of trying to do this with an ordinary house hose (pressure) and it did nothing. Too, when you make your bog, dig the sides so you have a V shape, NOT straight up; helps the directional flow during flushing. Btw, you don't need to use the expensive aquablox system; I used large round stone over a 4" drain tile pipe for my centipede and you can use similar 12" corrugated poly pipe for your snorkel. I did a diy version as I didn't know anything about aquablox and didn't have access to 12" drain pipe.

 

[Lisak1]

Seems a lot of advice comes from people who have never had a bog

My favorite kind of advice... "never actually done it myself, but I just KNOW It won't work". About as useful as it sounds.

@combatwombat - great explanation. People just need to know what KIND of pond they want to build and THEN decide what components they need to include. Too many people try to include everything they've read that people say you "MUST HAVE" when it 's just not necessary.

 

[GBBUDD]

In some areas some devices may be necessary. But all to often the simpler you keep it the better off youll be. To many times all the contraptions and gizmos are for no other reason then our own short comings . Such as over feeding , in the wild theres no dinner bell at 6 pm let alone breakfast and lunch. Food can be days away in the wild. Let your fish graze on the rocks nibbling the rocks cleaning off algae and bacteria. They won't suffer for not being fed by us for a dew days. All to often the filters are too small the manufacturers will say my system for only x dollars will do x better then the competions. I'm a a firm believer or building or buying much larger then needed filtration. That way if something should die or some other bio load appears it can grow to accommodate the needs.

 

[poconojoe]

There are two basic forms of bog filters.

The snorkel, centipede and aqua box method and the much simpler one with a manifold just covered with pea gravel.

I might be wrong about this, but I believe the snorkel/centipede method is needed for larger ponds, ie: thousands of gallons, and the simpler one is for smaller ponds.

My pond is about 1800 gallons and definitely overstocked due to the fish multiplying. I have the simple version of a bog. My bog surface area is just over 30% of the pond's surface area and my water is clear. The bog is approximately 14 feet by 5 feet and the gravel is about 12 inches deep. I couldn't get pea gravel at the time, so I used small river stone.

I have two 10 foot long branches of 2 inch pvc as my manifold.
I cut slits in the 2 inch pvc through 1/3 of the diameter and spaced the slits 1-1/2 inches apart.

I have a clean-out stack at the end of each of those pipes. The pipes have a 90 facing up. They end just above the gravel with a screw-on cap.
These clean-outs are great for flushing any accumulated debris inside the pipes. Opening those caps causes the pond pump to push any accumulated debris out. Black water will shoot out for a few seconds. I do this often in the Spring, (maybe once a week) and usually once a month in the Summer.

Hope this helps...

 

[wamil]

Alright, thank you guys.
I'm converting a ~22000gal pool to a pond and my bog should be about 20' x 12', so I think I'll go for the snorkel method.
Planning to have the bog 12" at the shallowest, sloping down to maybe 2 feet in the middle where the snorkel will be.

4" drain tile pipe for my centipede

Sorry, what do you mean by "4" drain tile pipe"? I'm unfamiliar with the term.
This is the same kind of perforated pipe they use under the gravel in french drains, right?

 

[GBBUDD]

For a snorkel and centipede you'll need more then 24 inches . The snorkel should be dug into the rectangle andv t he liner pushed into this depression with the aquablocks at 18 " and the gravel i recommend 18 inches not just s foot due to roots being abkle to grow into the aquablocks. At only a foot