My goldfish pond

[herzausstahl]

Keith,
I think I usually go on the idea it acts as an insulator. Not really sure if it can get colder, more of the belief possibly stop the ice from freezing deeper and thereby keeping the deepest water warmer than it would be without it. No science, just guessing and too much snow for me to shovel off.

 

[CountryEscape]

Herz, I've always heard weather people saying that the snow insulates the ground. If the ground is not frozen, and we get a big snow, it will keep the ground underneath from freezing solid. So, probably does the same thing like you said on the ice on the pond, keeps it from getting colder and therefore thicker. Snow also makes it darker for the fish underneath, but I don't know that they are bothered by darkness. In the wild, they would not have a human to shovel off their pond ... unless the ice underneath was good for ice skating. I've been known to shovel off a whole pond before to skate on it .... way back in the day.

 

[CometKeith]

CE, There is this new fangled thing called Google. It lets you look up anything you want on the computer to learn more about it. Now you don't need your old encyclopedia or dictionary. I used Google to look up "hanger steak" and found some information on it. Evidently it was not made up by cometkeith!
Herz, I looked up to see if if ice can get colder than 32 degrees and if snow would keep it warmer. That was my real question. It looks like ice can get as cold as 0 degrees Kelvin, which is really cold so -273 degree centigrade Snow is a cluster of ice crystals and hence a mineral. It seems like snow is usually warmer than ice and hence the insulating affect for the ground and ponds etc, but I couldn't find out how cold snow could get and what makes it warmer than ice. I doubt the snow in the arctic is 32 degrees.

 

[shakaho]

The main reason snow is a great insulator is it shares the property of all good insulation -- in contains a lot of air. I don't see any way snow can be warmer than Ice. It is ice with a lot of air trapped in it. Snow exposed to air colder than 32 F, will have the same temperature as the air it is exposed to. So if it's below zero, the top of the snow will be below zero. If the snow is two feet deep, that in contact with the ground will be much warmer than the top layer, matching the temperature of the ground.

 

[j.w]

I'm enjoying learning all this as I go. You guys come up w/ some good questions.
Ok so if this guy knows what he's talking about he explains it pretty well : http://www.wisedan.com/ice.html
Ice can't get colder than 32* and as long as it's still ice it can't get warmer either.........right?
On insulation I continue to learn more : http://www.helium.com/items/2256666-snow-insulation
It does insulate things quite well. Can snow be warm? Not technically, but it does keep in heat. Snow has insulation properties, which mean that you really can be warm when covered with snow. So long as its not touching your bare skin that is.

 

[CometKeith]

JW. This is from your source:We can remove still more BTU's to make the ice colder if we wish. So ice can get much colder than 32 degrees. Ice can in fact get as cold as 273 degrees Kelvin. Shakaho then are you saying snow and ice are always the same temperature? I agree about the insulating affect but what happens with snow over ice? . So would you want snow to insulate your ice ever? or in other words do you want snow to cover the ice on your pond? Is there any benefit to that? Maybe the ice on your pond is 30 degrees and the air temp is 0 so the snow keeps your ice nice and toasty? This is an interesting article on absolute cold; . http://io9.com/5889074/why-cant-we-get-down-to-absolute-zero The coldest temperatures ever recorded on earth was in 1983 in Antarctica at 184 Kelvin or -128.47 F !!!

 

[j.w]

Ok I thought it said it didn't matter how many BTU's you removed as it stayed at freezing 32*. Went back and re-read that last part of that paragraph.........must have went past me the first time I skimmed through it. Whoops!

 

[CometKeith]

yup, so my basic question is answered. You want it to snow when your pond is covered with ice. This way the snow insulates everything below it including keeping the ice from getting any colder and forming more ice below it. Since the water under the ice is over freezing you don't want it to get any colder and the snow will keep the heat in and not lose any more btu's. Therefore don't shovel your pond and pray for more snow! The only other issue are that gasses might get trapped under the ice and snow and that is why it is good to keep an air stone in the pond or a hole in the ice or both. I have been pretty confident this winter with only an air stone even though there has not always been a hole in the ice. Now last year it was 50 degrees warmer on the same day here and I wouldn't have been worried about ice and snow!

 

[j.w]

Well I'm just glad I don't have to worry about that much cold here. We just have to deal w/ all the liquid cold falling on us!

 

[CountryEscape]

Not sure which is worse, JW, snow and ice or tons of rain. I think I'll take the ice, as my air and water bubblers did a great job of keeping a nice large hole in the ice. Of course, it was not near as cold last winter as it has been in the past. The water bubbler quit a couple of times (until I removed the pre-filter from the cage) and caused the pond to ice over, but heater melted it again so I could clean out the filter. Next year, I'll be more experienced with how to keep the water open. And, won't run the waterfall unless I know it isn't going to freeze solid. Did pretty good keeping both bogs going, so that helped with circulation as well.
Thanks you guys for figuring out the snow over ice issue. It was interesting.

 

[CometKeith]

CE, I have been thinking about a little more. None of us have the kind of extreme cold that we have to worry too much about our ponds freezing over especially if they are at least 4-5 ft deep. Also I read that snow needs to be a few feet thick in order to insulate anything. So I'm not sure if having a little snow or not makes any difference. It seems like you found a nice balance to keeping your pond open. I tried running my water pump but it stopped working when it got too cold. I think using an air pump is the most reliable way to keep things good in your pond over the winter. I go pretty much the whole winter without touching my pond and it is fine in the spring and rely on my air pump to keep things good. Now I don't even worry if there is a hole or not as long as the pump is going. This is the first year in a few that I didn't start using my water pump in early March because it has been so cold here. I think it is going down to 13 F degrees tonight!

 

[CountryEscape]

They were saying 17 here tonight, Keith. I'm really getting tired of this cold. I saw last night, Chicago last year on first day of spring, 85, this year 35, Detroit last year 82, this year 30. I know we had flowers blooming by this time and some areas had normal spring and were jealous. Not it's a reverse situation this year. I'm patient, but this is getting to be too much. I'm just glad I have not had any ice for several weeks now on my ponds. Even if it gets 17 tonight and 20's the next nite, I won't get any ice more than a thin sheet which will be gone by late morning.

 

[CometKeith]

I know it getting ridiculous. The first day of spring is our anniversary. 20 long hard years! We went to see the Book of Mormons with our daughter to celebrate.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Good to see someone still together for 20 years, me and my hubby have been together since 1991. Hope you had a nice anniversary Keith!

Yesterday we had a very wet snowstorm, big flakes were wet and stuck to trees, after which then froze and then crumbled to the ground as Crunchy ice crystals. The trees all over town had crunchy ice underneath. It was weird, I should have snapped a picture.

 

[CountryEscape]

Well, I asked for your weather, Colleen, and now I think it's headed this way. We are supposed to have mostly sunny skies tomorrow and 50 degrees for a high! Great, right?! Well, then after midnight tomorrow it's supposed to start snowing. They are saying 4-7" for goodness sake!!! We have not had that kind of snow last WINTER, and it's supposed to be spring now. :sad: But, that's not all of it. Supposed to have 20-30 mph winds, and it's supposed to stay right at freezing on Sunday, and not quit with the precip until sometime Monday morning. So, whatever comes down will hit thawed out ground, and I thought would go away, but they are saying whatever is still on the roads come Sun. evening is going to freeze and cause driving problems again on Mon. Joy joy .... NOT! :helm2: I think I need to move ... but only until it decides to be spring here in Illinois.