leaving filter in the pond over winter months

[bettasngoldfish]

the air pumps are made by airmax and they work great and come with every thing .I use an extra hose just pumping water across the surface to add extra air to the water also

Help! My air pump arrived a few days ago and I went to try it out today on a 100 and 75 gallon rubber maid tub (one hose/tubing in each) and it barely made any water movement/bubbles. One of the air stones was putting out some air and the other pretty much nothing (the air stone even broke when I tried to take it off the end of the tubing) I checked to make sure I put the check valve on right and even removed one all together and that didn't help.

Needless to say I'm very disappointed as this cost $79.00 and I'm not sure it's even of any use.

Suggestions please......

 

[sissy]

Call and tell them and they will send you a new one or e-mail pics of it .I have had mine for a year and my neighbor has one no problems .There is always a lemon in the bunch .You do have to soak the air stones before you use them .Most air stones need that done .I soaked mine for 12 hours before I used them ..I just put the loose tubing in the tanks and did you put the check valves on going the right direction ,my neighbor put 2 of hers in the wrong direction .They have an arrow on them and the knob on the top turns the air up and down .

 

[bettasngoldfish]

thanks for the tips : )

Before I make any calls would you mind looking at a short video I made of the air pump? (it's in a one gallon bucket with no air stones on either end and I did double check the check valves and they are on correct)

It's on my photobucket account here: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigmiss/media/20130810_152644_zps8fd664dc.mp4.html

thanks

 

[sissy]

I am not sure about the 1000 gallon one but it does not look right .I have the 2000 gallon one .I understand that they were supposed to have improved on the one I bought .I'm not sure it is giving out as much air as it should and it sure is not as strong as it should be .Gosh the one a petco has 4 outlets and gives off my air than that one and is only around 20 dollars .

 

[Waterbug]

Keeping any kind of bio filter running is pointless because the bacteria stop working below 40F. On the plus side ammonia isn't very toxic at these temps and fish produce less. Mother Nature thinks of everything.

Keeping the surface ice free is a pretty hot fad in some pond forums these days. There is some grain of reason for keeping the surface open, but it also not only ignores the much bigger danger, it increases that danger.

People want to keep a pond opening because of the danger they've heard about toxic gases from decaying organic matter and fish respiration. These gases normally escape the water at the surface, but somewhat prevented by ice. Many people seem to think the pond must stay open 24/7 or the fish will be killed in minutes. Like putting a plastic bag over a human's head.

Well, that's not really true. Millions of lakes and ponds freeze over for months at a time and have for millions of years and fish have survived. The actual danger depends on three basic things.

1. The amount and type of decaying matter. How fast the toxic gases are produced effects how fast the levels build to dangerous levels.

2. The length of time the surface is covered. The longer the water is covered the more toxic gases can accumulate. This can also mean a pond freezes solid, or ice is so thick too little water remains for fish. A pump moving a bit of water or a small heater isn't going stop that kind of freezing. Even rivers and creeks freeze solid.

3. The number and size of fish, the fish load. One fish in a 10,000 gal pond is no problem. 1000 goldfish in a 100 gal pond is a big problem...even without ice.

Real danger.
Trapped gasses are not the only thing that kills fish. Cold water will kill them even faster.

Most keepers don't seem to know that ice keeps the pond warm. When a pond ices over the water becomes very still which allows the water to stratify. The coldest water, near 32F will float, rise to the surface, just below the ice. The warmest water at 39F will sink to the very bottom. Koi and Goldfish can not live very long in 32F water, but can in the 39F water at the bottom.

When ice melts naturally the the stratification is broken by wind but that's OK because the air temp is well above 32F so the water is too.

How to kill your fish.
When you keep the surface open you're making sure all the water in the pond is nearly the same temp which can be about 32F. Water where salt has been added, or minerals allowed to accumulate due to a lack of proper water changing, will also be much colder before freezing. These temps can be deadly to fish. It's like if we were naked in an ice box. If we stay still and there's no moving air we won't lose heat as fast as when a fan is turned on blowing air on us. We can survive for some period of time, but our chances are greatly reduced with the fan.

Best way to euthanize fish...place them in a bucket of ice water.

I get that telling people they should keep their ponds free of ice is fun, and screwing with all the different schemes is fun, and thinking you're "saving your fish" makes people feel good. But if you're interested in actually keeping fish alive a bit more science will be a big help.

To save time...posting "well I keep my pond open and my fish didn't freeze to death" doesn't actually prove ponds must be kept open. Fish can survive all kinds of crap keepers throw at them. It's a question of how long the fish must endure these conditions and a bunch of other stuff that determine whether they pull thru or not. That 39F is water's maximum density is not opinion, it's an actual scientific fact.

 

[dieselplower]

Best way to euthanize fish...place them in a bucket of ice water.

Are you being serious about this? Yes obviously if you take a fish from 70 degree water and put it in a bucket of ice water you will essentially shock the fish to death. A gradual decrease in temperature over the course of months, as happens in an outdoor pond, will do nothing to harm the fish. I have proven this, as have millions of other fish and fish keepers, for thousands of years, if not more. I thought you would know that as the temperature cools, the fish's metabolism slows, until it was in a nearly hibernation like state. The fish is fine. Opinions vary, ponds vary, successful pond keeping practices vary, etc. It seems that fish can live with a hole open, or iced over, each to some extent. Personally, I net out the bottom, remove plant matter that is or will be dead, keep a hole open with a pump near the surface, and leave the water in the 3 to 5 feet depth range relatively undisturbed. No dead fish.

 

[dieselplower]

But if you're interested in actually keeping fish alive a bit more science will be a big help.

Please by all means tell us what to do according to science. Let it ice over, but not for too long, depending on the fish/gallon ratio? OK great, what is the formula?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Thank you Dieselplower for pointing out some of the flawed logic in that post.
This debate about circulating the water and "ventilating" the pond versus chilling the water has been going on for some time and will probably go on for some time. But to save time..... posting.... " I let my pond ice over and my fish survived" doesn't prove anything.
I've tried it both ways. I use to circulate the water in my old pond with a small pump and never had a fish, frog or turtle death. Last winter I left my new (larger) pond to freeze over as an experiment to see how the fish frogs and turtles would fair, and for the first time in my I had several fish die, as well as my two turtles and frogs. I had a probe thermometer at the bottom of the pond and monitored the bottom temperature all winter, it definitely stayed warmer down there than my previous pond, but that didn't seem to help the survival rate. One thing I noticed in the early spring when the ice started to melt was that I could detect a light H2S smell in the water. That coupled with a lack of oxygen I believe was responsible for the deaths.
I will be circulating the pond water this winter and monitoring the bottom temps again, and I'll see for myself if I can once again achieve 0% death rate like I did in the old pond.

 

[Carolyn22]

Thank you Dieselplower for pointing out some of the flawed logic in that post.
This debate about circulating the water and "ventilating" the pond versus chilling the water has been going on for some time and will probably go on for some time. But to save time..... posting.... " I let my pond ice over and my fish survived" doesn't prove anything.
I've tried it both ways. I use to circulate the water in my old pond with a small pump and never had a fish, frog or turtle death. Last winter I left my new (larger) pond to freeze over as an experiment to see how the fish frogs and turtles would fair, and for the first time in my I had several fish die, as well as my two turtles and frogs. I had a probe thermometer at the bottom of the pond and monitored the bottom temperature all winter, it definitely stayed warmer down there than my previous pond, but that didn't seem to help the survival rate. One thing I noticed in the early spring when the ice started to melt was that I could detect a light H2S smell in the water. That coupled with a lack of oxygen I believe was responsible for the deaths.
I will be circulating the pond water this winter and monitoring the bottom temps again, and I'll see for myself if I can once again achieve 0% death rate like I did in the old pond.

Interesting reading..... I do NOT circulate my water during the winter. I have 2 deicers that are put into the pond generally the end of November to the first week in December and the pump in the skimmer comes in while the other pumps stay in the pond, but are shut off. I have never had any deaths from wintering my fish. I should also mention that my pond is vacuumed in the fall and in the spring - I do not want my fish overwintering in any type of crud that may be in the bottom of the pond.

I have a friend on another site that is in Anchorage Alaska and she has had nothing but problems. She cannot overwinter koi, but has on occasion overwintered goldfish, however she does run an airstone into her pond for the winter. I am wondering if the difference is is more related to the zones and how cold each of our winters can be. I have to believe there is a big difference between a winter in British Colombia Canada than there is in Northeastern PA.

 

[Waterbug]

Please by all means tell us what to do according to science. Let it ice over, but not for too long, depending on the fish/gallon ratio? OK great, what is the formula?

Sure. If you read the many posts from over many years post by Koi pond keepers in places like Sweden and Canada you will get a very good idea of what fish load, duration of ice coverage and how a clean pond or dirty pond can effect the outcome. Places like Koiphen, Koi-Bito, etc., have many. Here is a single example. However, the examples of what other people have experienced, assuming they provide actual data and not just whatever opinion pops into their heads, the better picture you get. To me, this kind of diverse data is useful even if I do the same experiment myself. If my data is way off from most other data I kind of figure I need to look at my experiment closer.

This concept of keeping fish in an iced over pond isn't exactly something new. Fish have been kept this way for hundreds of years. But please, if anyone needs to "discover" this "new" concept be my guess. But if your data refutes hundreds of years of experience and basic science please expect your data to be questioned.

And sure no skin off my nose if you want to push your fish to their limits. Enjoy.

 

[sissy]

I keep my water running in my filters ,it does not get that cold here and reason I keep it running is I like the sound .Last year Christmas day it was close to 70 degrees and storm came 2 days later and snow lasted until noon time and was melted .I put the deicer over my pump and it helps keep things running

 

[Waterbug]

I am wondering if the difference is is more related to the zones and how cold each of our winters can be. I have to believe there is a big difference between a winter in British Colombia Canada than there is in Northeastern PA.

Huge difference. Not just zones but the local conditions. In NY once we had temps that never got above 0F for more than a week, -25F at night (not wind chill). That single period was enough to freeze some ponds solid which had never froze before because it happened late in the winter when soil temps had already been driven down. That period froze the soil to a depth of better than 3' (I was drilling post holes at the time). However most years we had maybe 4 weeks max of ice coverage before temps warmed before the next cold snap.

 

[dieselplower]

Sure. If you read the many posts from over many years post by Koi pond keepers in places like Sweden and Canada you will get a very good idea of what fish load, duration of ice coverage and how a clean pond or dirty pond can effect the outcome. Places like Koiphen, Koi-Bito, etc., have many. Here is a single example. However, the examples of what other people have experienced, assuming they provide actual data and not just whatever opinion pops into their heads, the better picture you get. To me, this kind of diverse data is useful even if I do the same experiment myself. If my data is way off from most other data I kind of figure I need to look at my experiment closer.

This concept of keeping fish in an iced over pond isn't exactly something new. Fish have been kept this way for hundreds of years. But please, if anyone needs to "discover" this "new" concept be my guess. But if your data refutes hundreds of years of experience and basic science please expect your data to be questioned.

And sure no skin off my nose if you want to push your fish to their limits. Enjoy.

Below is the post you quoted. It says that when the pond was uncovered with a hole the temp was around 4C. When it was covered with ice it was about 3C. 3 is colder then 4. Also it said that when they did not use a pump the ph, and kh declined. When they added a pump and kept the top open a bit, the water quality improved. You just disproved your point.

Over Wintering Koi in Ontario


Living in a cold climate has some draw backs concerning Koi keeping. Ideally these lovely fish should be raised in a place where seasonal temperature's typically vary from 10�C to 30�C , but I suppose that depends on who you're talk too... while they may be cold blooded we know that they are not cold water fish. Unless a pond is indoors here in Canada, those "ideal" temperatures just aren't possible all year round. Here in our part of Ontario summer air temperatures can reach well above 30�C with humidity while winter air temperatures can plummet far below -10�C(add windchill and it feels doubly cold). There are a few different ways to winterize an outdoor pond in which fish reside, dependent on the design, to ensure things run smoothly in the following spring. Even with careful planning though sometimes there may be fish losses come spring. Our winters tend to be very cold and long.

Over the past years our methods for wintering koi have changed somewhat. Each winter presented it's own dilemma's which we had to adapt to in keeping our koi "alive". For the first two winters with our pond we over wintered a few koi in less than 1000gal pond. The pond was 3' deep. At first we tried using a small water pump(250gph) set about 6-8" deep to keep a hole open... this method was short lived. I woke one morning in late December to find the pond completely iced over. It took several pots of boiling water to thaw out a hole. That same day I purchased a "pond deicer", similar to a cattle trough heater(1500w !). We placed the deicer on a timer to come on for a few hours during the coldest parts of the day and night. This kept a large surface area free of ice and maintained the water temperature at around 5�C. We tested the water regularily to keep tabs on ammonia, nI, KH, pH and temperature. The koi seemed ok, all huddled together at the bottom, occasionally on warmer days we observed them munching on algae.

Our third ponding season we expanded from 1000 gals 3' depth to 5000 gals 6' depth. Fall into winter we maintained our past routine of water changes and monitoring. Shuting the main pumps down and winterizing the filter.

That December the pond froze over so fast the ice was as clear as glass with a depth of 24 inches. From our past experience in allowing the majority of the surface to ice over, the water temperature remained stable through out the winter season. Ice cover helped protect the waters surface from wind chill and lessened evaporation. We found that the average water temperature remained at 4�C during the course of the winter months in the past - smaller pond was due to a heat source, the larger pond due to that water under the ice is generally 3�C(38�F). This was to be a different year so we found... you read more you learn more! We know that keeping a hole open and trying to keep the water temperature at or above 3�C is greatly effected by the method which is used.
We noticed a decline in the ponds pH and KH - not unusual really and for us our KH was quite high typically so we just monitored the level. From what you read the answer is generally 'add baking soda'. We wanted to try and find a different route to take than this that didn't break the bank(three kids to feed, etc etc LOL). Did some research and asked some questions... found info on CO2/winter/ice/natural light etc. So off to get some supplies and construct a temporary cover for the pond to see if it would help. We wanted to keep the snow off the ice, keep the algea from dying(source of CO2), the deicer would be more effective and a small bubbler/air pump was added for circulation. One week later and there was a noticable improvement. The ice had started to retreat and become thinner, the KH leveled off and remained stable. ​

 

[dieselplower]

I would not run an airstone into a pond in that cold of weather. The air going into the pond could be MUCH colder than 32*, which would "super cool" the water. Think about it... if the weather is -20*, you are pumping super super cold air into the pond.

Interesting reading..... I do NOT circulate my water during the winter. I have 2 deicers that are put into the pond generally the end of November to the first week in December and the pump in the skimmer comes in while the other pumps stay in the pond, but are shut off. I have never had any deaths from wintering my fish. I should also mention that my pond is vacuumed in the fall and in the spring - I do not want my fish overwintering in any type of crud that may be in the bottom of the pond.

I have a friend on another site that is in Anchorage Alaska and she has had nothing but problems. She cannot overwinter koi, but has on occasion overwintered goldfish, however she does run an airstone into her pond for the winter. I am wondering if the difference is is more related to the zones and how cold each of our winters can be. I have to believe there is a big difference between a winter in British Colombia Canada than there is in Northeastern PA.

 

[Carolyn22]

I would not run an airstone into a pond in that cold of weather. The air going into the pond could be MUCH colder than 32*, which would "super cool" the water. Think about it... if the weather is -20*, you are pumping super super cold air into the pond.

I tried to tell her that, however her husband has her convinced that the oxygen is an issue. I was not going to do more than to politely point out to her the possiblity that water was being super chilled. She is a nice lady and has adopted the attitude that she will keep her pond to a couple of goldfish and if they make it great, if they don't then she will get more. I think I am probably more emotionally attached to my fish than that - however, my children seem to be of the opinion that I get emotionally attached to most things!