Introduction and first volley of questions.

[ki5ka]

... bathing suits ....

Bathing suits? What bathing suits LOL

I hadn't given that much thought Mitch, but at just 600 gallons, the stuff we introduce to the water may in fact have an impact, and we stir up sediment to boot.

 

[ki5ka]

They make kits that measure O2. If you can’t find one near you, they can be ordered online. In fact, when I got mine out just now for this pic — realized it expired 2 months ago . IMHO, it’s never a good idea to wait for symptoms to show up, to know that you have a problem — not when it’s something you can stay on top of 24/7. Moving water is important for gas exchange, and anything that causes a break in the water’s surface — like bubbles from an air stone, or the action from a waterfall or fountain — is best as gasses are exchanged at the surface. Personally, and it’s probably overkill, but I have 3 airstones, 2 spitters, the return from a small bog, and the return from a Skippy filter. My pond is roughly 3000 gallons and all I have are about 30 goldfish.

Pond O2 test kit
View attachment 114677

I'll have to add that to my test kit. Thanks M

 

[MitchM]

Bathing suits? What bathing suits LOL

I hadn't given that much thought Mitch, but at just 600 gallons, the stuff we introduce to the water may in fact have an impact, and we stir up sediment to boot.

Stirring up sediment is a good thing. Just make sure you have a healthy KH level so your bacteria can do their job!

 

[ki5ka]

Stirring up sediment is a good thing. Just make sure you have a healthy KH level so your bacteria can do their job!

OK, that one is new to me. What does hardness have to do with bacteria and what levels are desirable?

 

[MitchM]

Carbonates are required for the bacteria life processes and neutralize acids produced during decomposition.
I saw that you are using test strips to test your water. They can be very inaccurate. I would switch over to liquid drop test kits instead.
A KH reading above at least 100, or 6 drops in the liquid test kit is recommended.

 

[ki5ka]

Carbonates are required for the bacteria life processes and neutralize acids produced during decomposition.
I saw that you are using test strips to test your water. They can be very inaccurate. I would switch over to liquid drop test kits instead.
A KH reading above at least 100, or 6 drops in the liquid test kit is recommended.

Thanks Mitch.

 

[ki5ka]

Hi Lisa, Thanks for the thoughts.

Your bog design is unusual. In all my reading about bogs I've never heard of anyone using either sand or underlayment in the construction.

I'm not sure where I got the idea of using sand as a first layer and underlayment to contain it; perhaps it is from my background as a science teacher. There are numerous "science fair projects" that demonstrate how nature filters water and sand is always involved. I built two smaller scale models to test the efficacy of the design and at both scales, my fish demonstrated no behaviors of distress and my plants thrived so I have my fingers crossed that at a larger scale, and over a longer time period, the concept will prove out.

I"m not sure I was clear where the underlayment is. The underlayment is an 8" wide strip placed horizontally into the rock border of the bog as a medium to catch particles of matter and build up a wall of resistance in my permeable boundary. I also planted watercress along the length of the boundary to add resistance, capture the last of the nitrates, further disrupt the flow and add turbulence.

...We built our rain exchange

Here in the Sonoran Desert, we have just 4" of rain a year. Rain doesn't figure in.

The underlayment very quickly clogged with fine sediment and prevented water from flowing through.

That is exactly what I intend. I didn't really want to "build" an impermeable barrier, but the more impermeable it becomes, the better for my intentions. While I need some flow over the barrier to keep the watercress happy, the more that I can push around to the other side, the more filtration I will get from the gravel bed, so less permeability is better... at least I hope so! If not, it will be simple enough to pull it out.

We were cutting the underlayment out from under the gravel... I don't recommend it.

Hopefully I've cleared this up. There isn't underlayment under the gravel, though my sand might suffer a similar fate.

If you have water entering your bog that is filtered and free of all sediment you might be fine,

I think that maybe is the goal I want to shoot for. Still pondering that, but just a few minutes ago I ordered a much larger pump and the filter-weir rated for 10,000 gallons! LOL

Again, thanks for your input. The comments here have helped so much; it forces me to really think things through to write these posts and I think that helps me make better decisions. Thank you all!

 

[Lisak1]

Ah - gotcha. So, out of curiosity, why not just use liner to create the edge, instead of hoping that the underlayment will form a barrier to water flow?

 

[ki5ka]

Ah - gotcha. So, out of curiosity, why not just use liner to create the edge, instead of hoping that the underlayment will form a barrier to water flow?

My intent is to have some flow through the barrier to maintain the plants growing there. I also have this idealistic notion of letting the pond form itself in a manner similar to natural formation as much as possible.

 

[Lisak1]

Hmmm... OK. Sounds interesting - I'll be curious to see how that works out!

 

[ki5ka]

Hmmm... OK. Sounds interesting - I'll be curious to see how that works out!

Me too!

 

[Mmathis]

@ki5ka Not to sound like a dumb blonde (sorry if I offend anyone)......but I’m still trying to understand and, well, visualize how your bog is set up. Exactly WHERE is the perm layer, and where is the sand? Is the sand mixed in with gravel? Where does the water enter the bog, and where does it exit? Is there a liner underneath all of this? Do you have any drawings?

It is sometimes unfortunate for me that I am a visual person, because I am not able to “see” something based on a description alone — (yes, I even have to use apps to see what furniture will look like if I want to rearrange a room, and drives my husband crazy when he says, “Can you imagine what it would look like?”).

 

[ki5ka]

@ki5ka ...Exactly WHERE is the perm layer,

Do you see the row of rocks the form the edge of the bog (right there by the ugly brown crap on the visible liner)? The underlayment is between and behind those rocks, then backfilled with sand and gravel to form a berm around the bog.

and where is the sand?

Below the gravel. It does get mixed together if I walk in the bog, but it's pretty easy to sift it out when it is disturbed, and most of the sand returns to the bottom layer.

Where does the water enter the bog, and where does it exit?

By design, the water enters the bog at the edge furthest away in the pic (in the shadows) but at the moment, and in the photo, all the water is being diverted through the temporary filter set up (the white thing behind the fountain). I have dug out a channel in the gravel to direct the flow out of the bag into the depression in the back of the bog and so back through the bog to the pond. A small volume of water is usually flowing through the fountain as well.

This will change soon. I am waiting on the arrival of a 31" Savio Filter Weir which will be added to the back edge, about a foot higher than the present height and so I will create another riffle/rapids. I'm also replacing my pump which will triple the pumping volume.

As it leaves the bog, the water flows over the rocks on the left side of the photo and through the row of rocks mentioned above.

Is there a liner underneath all of this?

A one-piece liner under all of it.

Do you have any drawings?

Just some hand-drawn that make sense only to me I'm afraid. They are not to scale, nor realistic.

 

[Mmathis]

@ki5ka So.....is the bog fed by water from underneath the substrate (upflow system) or water flowing over the top of the surface? IOW, does the water interact with the roots and substrate at all? Most of us have upflow bogs (water delivered via a PVC manifold that percolates upward, through a gravel substrate).....which might be one reason I am having trouble figuring yours out. Sorry about that! But we’re always trying to learn new things here!

 

[ki5ka]

@ki5ka So.....is the bog fed by water from underneath the substrate (upflow system) or water flowing over the top of the surface?

The pump delivers the water into the back of the bog which is slightly deeper and has no gravel or sand. It flows through the gravel bed and into the pond. At least that's the idea. Seems to be doing that. I do wonder if the low spot will develop into a muck hole but that's why I left it free of gravel, so I can monitor it and clean it out if needed.

IOW, does the water interact with the roots and substrate at all?

The water is discharged in the back of the bog so it must travel through the bed to get to the pond. There is a certain amount flowing over the top, but most goes through. The plants are happy so it must be doing so. I suppose the bed might clog up and push the water over the top. Hope that doesn't happen but if it does, I'll try something else. It's quite small, so not that much work.

My ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are all very low, bordering on unmeasurable, despite 9 fish in a 600 gallon bucket. The fish are behaving like healthy happy fish and my plants seem to be thriving despite the heat so except for the low visibility, seems to be working as desired. I am a bit puzzled by the amount of algae in the water, despite the low readings for nutrients. It has gotten worse every day and I'm cleaning the temporary filter bag every afternoon. I sure am anxious for the big filter to arrive, it's due next week. I'm trying not to get too worked up as this is hot season and a bit of an algae bloom might be unavoidable.

Most of us have upflow bogs (water delivered via a PVC manifold that percolates upward, through a gravel substrate).....which might be one reason I am having trouble figuring yours out. Sorry about that!

I'm often teased about having to do everything differently from everyone else so I'm accustomed to people being confused. It's OK

But we’re always trying to learn new things here!

Indeed... Isn't the internet amazing!