Ideas for waterfall rebuild please

[Pond skipper]

ANY CHANCE YOU GOT A BACK SYPHON? ORRRRRRRRR DID A SEAM / FOLD WHICK ON YOU !!!!!!!!!

There’s every chance a fold whicking or a back syphon could be the problem because I have no idea how there can be whicking if the liner isn’t porus or what back syphoning is. Is that where the water is splashing or running backwards being the waterfall?

 

[Pond skipper]

THE problem with using cement is if it tapers to a thin area it can crack and break off giving you sharp bits of concrete in the pond. not a great end result if you were to use it where there's no taper and it's is a solid 2" or 1" thick bead under a rock and the liner is TIght to the ground and will not move as any surface that's not solid is a disaster for concrete. or hydraulic. imo I found the foam and caulking to work the best . a bit messy but. For that matter if your just trying to make the foam a little better at stopping more water you could always use flex seal and paint it on. but my experience with flex seal is it peals easily it's not the strongest stuff

Thanks alot for all your help. I think I’m probably going to just go with the foam and the caulking as you suggest. Probably put a line of foam down on the first layer of rock then place the slab on it and caulk around the edge (on the water course side) then fill in with more foam as needed. do you use the actual waterfall foam or do you use one of the other ones? And am I right in thinking the caulking just needs to be a pure silicon type to be fish safe

 

[GBBUDD]

There’s every chance a fold whicking or a back syphon could be the problem because I have no idea how there can be whicking if the liner isn’t porus or what back syphoning is. Is that where the water is splashing or running backwards being the waterfall?

if you turn on a pump it pushes water in one direction . shut the pump off and some pumps can restrict how much water comes back. while others it might as well be a garden hose just pouring water back down the pipe in the opposite direction.

Not sure why your thinking it has to be porous in order to wick . it could be that the rubber gets in the sun and the sun heats up the rubber and the water making it expand and once that starts it could just keep on going

 

[GBBUDD]

Thanks alot for all your help. I think I’m probably going to just go with the foam and the caulking as you suggest. Probably put a line of foam down on the first layer of rock then place the slab on it and caulk around the edge (on the water course side) then fill in with more foam as needed. do you use the actual waterfall foam or do you use one of the other ones? And am I right in thinking the caulking just needs to be a pure silicon type to be fish safe

The waterfall foam AND THE PRO GUN APLICATOR are beyond handy AND REALY A MUST IN MY EYES . when you let go of the trigger the foam stops unlike the can and straw. AND EVEN IF YOUR CAN IS EMPTY do not remove it from the gun until your ready to start the next can . the gun will not clog if it is kept with an old can on the gun.

I'm not a fan of silicone i prefer polyurethane caulks 10/1 over silicone

 

[Lisak1]

Wicking in a fold of a pond liner is a result of capillary action - the water is able to move up the fold of the liner in opposition to gravity. One of those weird forces of nature. Wicking in a porous material works by a similar process but is a bit easier to understand.

Everything in nature becomes easier to understand though when you actually experience and observe it yourself - as many of us have with the old wicking fold in the liner trick. We learned bringing the liner up high enough behind the boulder edge and pressing it firmly against the back of the rock and then backfilling it tightly does prevent wicking. However we built our pond (intentionally) with edges that are very low - love the look of a boulder just peaking out of the water - so we do watch for areas of wicking. Low rocks also will allow your terrestrial plants to grow into the pond side, which can also create a surprising amount of water wicking. I'm dealing with a bit of that right now with some forget-me-nots gone crazy. Love them, but man do they create root mats! My one edge is constantly damp because they pull so much water from the pond.

@GBBUDD - I would never question your building techniques, but it always concerns me when people just getting into pond and waterfall building start talking about using foam to glue rocks together that won't stack securely on their own, or to stop leaks. Doesn't quite work that way. And I've found that exposed waterfall foam will fail over time - I'm talking 8-10 years of exposure to sun, heat, cold, etc - and can easily be pulled off rocks. And as we all know, the best LOOKING waterfalls are built with very few rocks - shouldn't be a whole lot of foaming needed.

The newest thing I'm seeing the pros do is the bib liner - fill an area with foam and then lay underlayment over it. It dries rock hard and does form - over time, as the fabric collects small debris - an almost water tight seal. Very cool idea where you have bigger gaps to fill or want more water to pool before spilling over. Very cool use of foam in my opinion.

Have you ever watched the videos that the PondDigger has done of ponds he's built in CA? I've seen him fill between every rock on the interior of the pond with foam. Run a course - foam behind. Run another course - foam. Etc. I don't recall the exact reason, but I do seem to remember the rocks he was using were relatively small. These were older videos so I wonder if he still does it.

Foam away my friends!

 

[Pond skipper]

if you turn on a pump it pushes water in one direction . shut the pump off and some pumps can restrict how much water comes back. while others it might as well be a garden hose just pouring water back down the pipe in the opposite direction.

Not sure why your thinking it has to be porous in order to wick . it could be that the rubber gets in the sun and the sun heats up the rubber and the water making it expand and once that starts it could just keep on going

Ya, neither of my pumps restricts back flow but the water would just go back into the main pond. Shouldn’t affect over all water level.
With your last comment about the sun, are you meaning the water expanding over the edge of the pond?

 

[GBBUDD]

rock on the interior of the pond with foam. Run a course - foam behind. Run another course - foam. Etc. I don't recall the exact reason, but I do seem to remember the rocks he was using were relatively small. These were older videos so I wonder if he still does it.

Never saw that video of his I haven't seen one of his in a long time. But the statement above is exactly what we are talking about the foam is not structural it's only a lock. To help keep the wall from moving and falling in.
I would never recommend foam for anything large enough to pin someone under water. This poster is using a couple good size boulders but it's the small stuff we were referring to using foam to aid the wall from falling in.

 

[Pond skipper]

The waterfall foam AND THE PRO GUN APLICATOR are beyond handy AND REALY A MUST IN MY EYES . when you let go of the trigger the foam stops unlike the can and straw. AND EVEN IF YOUR CAN IS EMPTY do not remove it from the gun until your ready to start the next can . the gun will not clog if it is kept with an old can on the gun.

I'm not a fan of silicone i prefer polyurethane caulks 10/1 over silicone

Like LePage PL premium? Is heard I shouldn’t use that with a fish pond. Gave you used it with fish? Is it ok? That would be great

 

[Pond skipper]

Wicking in a fold of a pond liner is a result of capillary action - the water is able to move up the fold of the liner in opposition to gravity. One of those weird forces of nature. Wicking in a porous material works by a similar process but is a bit easier to understand.

Everything in nature becomes easier to understand though when you actually experience and observe it yourself - as many of us have with the old wicking fold in the liner trick. We learned bringing the liner up high enough behind the boulder edge and pressing it firmly against the back of the rock and then backfilling it tightly does prevent wicking. However we built our pond (intentionally) with edges that are very low - love the look of a boulder just peaking out of the water - so we do watch for areas of wicking. Low rocks also will allow your terrestrial plants to grow into the pond side, which can also create a surprising amount of water wicking. I'm dealing with a bit of that right now with some forget-me-nots gone crazy. Love them, but man do they create root mats! My one edge is constantly damp because they pull so much water from the pond.

@GBBUDD - I would never question your building techniques, but it always concerns me when people just getting into pond and waterfall building start talking about using foam to glue rocks together that won't stack securely on their own, or to stop leaks. Doesn't quite work that way. And I've found that exposed waterfall foam will fail over time - I'm talking 8-10 years of exposure to sun, heat, cold, etc - and can easily be pulled off rocks. And as we all know, the best LOOKING waterfalls are built with very few rocks - shouldn't be a whole lot of foaming needed.

The newest thing I'm seeing the pros do is the bib liner - fill an area with foam and then lay underlayment over it. It dries rock hard and does form - over time, as the fabric collects small debris - an almost water tight seal. Very cool idea where you have bigger gaps to fill or want more water to pool before spilling over. Very cool use of foam in my opinion.

Have you ever watched the videos that the PondDigger has done of ponds he's built in CA? I've seen him fill between every rock on the interior of the pond with foam. Run a course - foam behind. Run another course - foam. Etc. I don't recall the exact reason, but I do seem to remember the rocks he was using were relatively small. These were older videos so I wonder if he still does it.

Foam away my friends!

Thank you for the in depth reply (I love this forum. People here are so helpful) as GBUDD said, I’m going to rebuild my waterfall in the same manor as it was, that is to say the main structure will not need to be “glued” to keep rocks and slabs in place however there are some smaller slabs/rocks that i use to form the edges to make the spillway and keep the water flowing in the right places. That’s what I want the foam for. I didn’t have very good luck with the pond and waterfall foam I bought last time. Not the find fault, I think I’m just not very good at it. That’s why I was thinking of foaming where the rocks/slabs are going to go and then seeing them in it. Then caulking around the inside edge where the water will make contact.(only because I’ve heard that the foam isn’t water tight. )

 

[RMaynard]

I found pretty good success using the liner to hold back the water behind the rocks. You would probably have to start over from the bottom to do so now, though.
lay the rocks you want the water to go over on the liner. behind them, pull the liner up to the top of the back side of the rocks, forcing the water over the fold in the liner, and thus over the rocks. Do the same on the sides to keep the water in the channel.

 

[GBBUDD]

Like LePage PL premium? Is heard I shouldn’t use that with a fish pond. Gave you used it with fish? Is it ok? That would be great

I never used lepage . Loctite yes you'll also see many will say not for marine use. But I never used it to keep a boat upright or anyone alive.

 

[bagsmom]

The long and short to what @bagsmom is referring to is to fold the excess liner INTO THE POND NOT OUT. This helps to minimize the strength of the draw/ whicking. But as a Gb rule of thumb ANY FOLD that is within 2 inches or less from the waters surface needs to be caulked. To prevent any chance of whicking.

She also did a kind of upright accordian fold - which probably makes no sense unless you see her do it. I am still trying to find the find so I can share a link on here.

 

[Pond skipper]

I found pretty good success using the liner to hold back the water behind the rocks. You would probably have to start over from the bottom to do so now, though.
lay the rocks you want the water to go over on the liner. behind them, pull the liner up to the top of the back side of the rocks, forcing the water over the fold in the liner, and thus over the rocks. Do the same on the sides to keep the water in the channel.

Thanks, I’m lucky in that I never trimmed the liner after I originally installed it so there is lots left to play with

 

[Pond skipper]

I never used lepage . Loctite yes you'll also see many will say not for marine use. But I never used it to keep a boat upright or anyone alive.

Ahhh that is a good point. I always see not for marine use or not intended for constant immersion or something like that. I guess I could try it.

 

[Pond skipper]

She also did a kind of upright accordian fold - which probably makes no sense unless you see her do it. I am still trying to find the find so I can share a link on here.

I’m guessing that might be my problem I have lots of folds as you can see in the pics would those be the kind of folds you are all talking about