How much room do koi need?

[Mitakuye]

Then what would you rely on? Each specie of fish has a typical growth rate based on water quality and food amount/content. Of course there are variations from any norm, but a general consensus is used in many different disciplines. Condition Factor is also an aspect of each fish that can be considered. In science and medicine, norms are constantly being used.
In determining total projected fish mass, some sort of benchmark means of weight/length must be available. Individual current weights of fish is useless in that it does not yield what this fish will weigh at full maturity unless the fish is already at its mature size.
Fish load and density for optimum quality must be determined on what the length/weight of the extant number of fish will be at some future date. For this some form of reliable guideline is necessary.

Systems should be built based on final biomass. Final biomass is determined by maximum potential weight (or harvest) and number of fish.

Weight gain and/or body conformity is the ultimate result of water quality, food regiment, and species.

Current weights of fish should never be utilized when building any system, although best measurement while maintaining the system.

If the system is already built, then simply do the fundamentals in reverse.

 

[Mitakuye]

Fish length will eventually stall, dependent on genetics.

Fish weight constantly fluctuates, dependent on feed regiment.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Systems should be built based on final biomass. Final biomass is determined by maximum potential weight (or harvest) and number of fish.

Weight gain and/or body conformity is the ultimate result of water quality, food regiment, and species.

Current weights of fish should never be utilized when building any system, although best measurement while maintaining the system.

If the system is already built, then simply do the fundamentals in reverse.

Sounds like we agree 'in principle'.

 

[Mitakuye]

As relates to fish length, I am afraid terms have been used that readers may not understand, such as "density".

Density is simply the weight of fish in a given space. Density is determined by length of fish divided by a "safe" stocking coefficient. The "safe" stocking coefficient is a number that is always changing depending on the system. So, not so easy to translate length of fish to density since this is very system context dependent.

10 gallons per pound of Koi sounds incredibly underestimated to me in a properly designed system, but this might be a good thing in case of pump failure.

Could even go as low as 20 gallons per pound or more to be on the safe side.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I am afraid terms have been used that readers may not understand, such as "density".

You may well be surprised. The veteran members of this forum are considerably better informed than one might find on other similar forums. Add to that the fact that they are quick learners, eager to expand their knowledge. This expansion can't happen if posts/comments are edited to a tyro's level.
Are we in agreement fellow members?.

 

[Lisak1]

Are we in agreement fellow members?.

Totally agree. Assuming that others don't understand because they don't agree is an old saw.

I never met an engineer that built a system based on a flow rate, rather than maximum potential livestock density.

What kind of engineers are you talking about who are building these systems?

 

[MitchM]

As far as I'm concerned, there is only one classification of pond - "Aquatic ecosystem"

Unless a person is making up a spreadsheet for a business plan, I don't see the point in categorizing pond design styles beyond that because there can be be so many variations. I had to look up "Aquascape pond style" because I thought Aquascape was a pond company that I don't have much respect for. (Aquascape IonGen comes to mind).

If you break down the eight or however many pond classifications people have come up with, is each classification then broken down further? What if someone has only 15 out of 16 qualifying items in their pond?
Do they then have an invalid pond?

We really only have to focus on 2 things - water quality and specie requirements.

.

 

[Lisak1]

I had to look up "Aquascape pond style" because I thought Aquascape was a pond company that I don't have much respect for.

People do use the term "Aquascape style" pond as a derisively, as it means a pond that has rocked walls and a gravel bottom, a big no-no in the koi pond world. I've been drummed off several forums once they found out that I was an outlier. haha! But AS has science on their side and they have built countless ponds that work - it's hard to argue with success, but oddly the DKP (dedicated koi pond) folks still do. They will continue the mantra that your pond will fail, your fish will die, you just have to wait long enough. OK. Well, if we wait long enough ALL of our fish will die!

There are things that Aquascape does that I don't necessarily agree with - the IonGen comes to mind, as do the routine spring and fall pond clean outs. But I understand why they do it. You could probably stay in business just building ponds, but you're definitely going to be more successful if you can capture a repeat business market or sell add-on products. But you can't argue with their pond building skill and knowledge. The ponds they build are absolutely stunning. They have a huge influence in the eco-pond / garden pond / hobby pond / koi pond / "you name it pond" market, most especially in the Chicago area where I live. They've done so much to get the word out about how easy and fun pond keeping can be. They have also been promoting the "eco-system" pond before anyone really knew what that even meant.

I think when you start discussing types of ponds, you really need to address pond purpose - what do you hope your pond will do or be FOR YOU? The particulars of your pond will develop from there. And I agree with you about the qualifiers to the types of ponds - in that case I think most of us would fall into the "hybrid" category... a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Few ponds stick to the "rules" around here!

 

[MitchM]

People do use the term "Aquascape style" pond as a derisively, as it means a pond that has rocked walls and a gravel bottom, a big no-no in the koi pond world. I've been drummed off several forums once they found out that I was an outlier. haha! But AS has science on their side and they have built countless ponds that work - it's hard to argue with success, but oddly the DKP (dedicated koi pond) folks still do. They will continue the mantra that your pond will fail, your fish will die, you just have to wait long enough. OK. Well, if we wait long enough ALL of our fish will die!

There are things that Aquascape does that I don't necessarily agree with - the IonGen comes to mind, as do the routine spring and fall pond clean outs. But I understand why they do it. You could probably stay in business just building ponds, but you're definitely going to be more successful if you can capture a repeat business market or sell add-on products. But you can't argue with their pond building skill and knowledge. The ponds they build are absolutely stunning. They have a huge influence in the eco-pond / garden pond / hobby pond / koi pond / "you name it pond" market, most especially in the Chicago area where I live. They've done so much to get the word out about how easy and fun pond keeping can be. They have also been promoting the "eco-system" pond before anyone really knew what that even meant.

I think when you start discussing types of ponds, you really need to address pond purpose - what do you hope your pond will do or be FOR YOU? The particulars of your pond will develop from there. And I agree with you about the qualifiers to the types of ponds - in that case I think most of us would fall into the "hybrid" category... a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Few ponds stick to the "rules" around here!

Around me, pond companies are few and far between. There's no point when our dominant season is winter, so you tend to follow nature, not businesses that are marketing products. Pond companies here clear snow for 6 months of the year.
But the majority of your post addressed ponds from a business point of view, which is how I see these pond classifications.
To me it doesn't matter if it's a rain puddle or the killer whale display at Seaworld.
It's just the water and what lives in and around it.

 

[Lisak1]

It's just the water and what lives in and around it

Agreed! That's why I said earlier "water is water is water" and I could add "fish are fish are fish". Sometimes we think about things WAAAAAAYYY too much.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

My 2 cents, then we can get back on the subject of this thread. As I see it, based on all of my research, there are basically only two (2) types of ponds (you can give them labels)- ponds that are aquatic eco-systems and ponds that aren't.

 

[Mitakuye]

In my position, the only classification of "pond" (or system) that matters is what agrees with the owner's desires rather than what I desire for them.