How much room do koi need?

[Dave 54]

Most serious Koi keepers suggest 1000 gallons minimum plus 300 per additional fish.

Do you know I've never been able to work this out how can one fish require 1,000 gallons when the next fish probably the same size only needs 300 gallons.
Jesus if I paid any attention to that I'd have one koi personaly I think its Bull however you still get folk wanting to argue it .
Dave I PM'd you just go with how many your head thinks remember I used to keep indoors with only 220 gallons and even then we were over stocked.
Just as long as maintenance is carried on with water changes and you test your waters on a regular basis I cannot see it being a problem my friend.

rgrds

Dave

 

[capewind]

LOL Dave, I have seen you say this before how you cant work this out ... Will try to spell this out in an easy to understand method ...The debate on this is what CAN be done to KEEP THEM ALIVE, verses giving them an environment to thrive in.

A normal every day bath tub can hold 150, up to 200 gallons of water FULL, depending on the exact measurements. Can you really see ONE 24" or larger koi THRIVING in a bath tub? If you put this ONE fish into 1000 gallons, it can move around a bit AND you are not fighting your water quality with heavy maintenance.

Would two 24" koi FIT into a BATH TUB??? Sure they would, and you can even add more filtration to handle the load ... How about 3 or 4, 24" koi ... ya, looking at my bath tub, I could even get more than that in there ... WHERE do you draw the line, of what is reasonable? You live in a country that you say has animal welfare laws ... at what point does packing them in like sardines become cruel?

That first 1000 gallons, is simply room to move.

If you get CNN over there, 10/24 at 9 pm, this will be on ...

 

[Dave 54]

Archemedies states that a body fully or partially imersed in water displaces no more than the volume of itself so add a filter and you have your pond
The koi themselves displacing no more than their volume "first thing they teach you when you join the Navy".
you add a filter man enough to take on excessive amounts of detritus, the jobs a good un as they say .

rgrds

Dave

 

[Mucky_Waters]

LOL Dave, I have seen you say this before how you cant work this out ... Will try to spell this out in an easy to understand method ...The debate on this is what CAN be done to KEEP THEM ALIVE, verses giving them an environment to thrive in.
That first 1000 gallons, is simply room to move.

If you get CNN over there, 10/24 at 9 pm, this will be on ...

Actually, the original question (debate) was, and I quote, "My question is what is the minimum size of tank to get? I want to make sure they are comfortable without breaking the bank!!"
​There is a difference between thriving, and being kept comfortable. In his original post Cdsdave says he wants to move the fish because he wants to fix a leak in his pond. So it seems the intent here is to fix the pond, not to make the fish thrive. I'm all for housing fish in the biggest body of water possible, but the question was, and I quote again, "what is the minimum size of tank?".
Fortunately Cdsdave's koi are nowhere near full grown, so even in a 100 gal aquarium they'd still have enough room to swim around a bit. Would they thrive in there? No. Could they be kept comfortable???? Well, that is what the "debate" is really about isn't it. With that in mind, can someone please tell me exactly what size indoor tank would make the difference between being comfortable and thriving?
I'm sure with good filtration and frequent water changes, those 4 small koi could be kept in a 100 gal aquarium for a few short months, and be kept at least as comfortable as birds kept in cages without enough room to fly around freely. Anybody in this debate have a budgie?
And I also believe there would be little to no risk of them developing psychosis and attacking Cdsdave come spring when he re-introduces them to back to the outside pond. but that's just me :dunno:

 

[dieselplower]

Do you know I've never been able to work this out how can one fish require 1,000 gallons when the next fish probably the same size only needs 300 gallons.


rgrds

Dave

That first 1000 gallons, is simply room to move.

Exactly. Look at it like this.... As a single person, you need "x" amount of square feet in your house to thrive. Noone thrives in a closet. When you get married, you not need to double the size of your house, you may simply want another half bath. Then when you have a kid, you do not have to double the original size again, you just need a small bedroom. Same for each additional kid. One person could thrive in an 1000 square foot apartment and if you added 300 square feet per additional person, you will all have plenty of room.

 

[capewind]

Actually, the original question (debate) was, and I quote, "My question is what is the minimum size of tank to get? I want to make sure they are comfortable without breaking the bank!!"

Sorry Mucky, I was specifically addressing Dave's thoughts on the debate of anyone saying 1000 gallon minimum.

 

[capewind]

"My question is what is the minimum size of tank to get? I want to make sure they are comfortable without breaking the bank!!"
​There is a difference between thriving, and being kept comfortable. In his original post Cdsdave says he wants to move the fish because he wants to fix a leak in his pond. So it seems the intent here is to fix the pond, not to make the fish thrive. I'm all for housing fish in the biggest body of water possible, but the question was, and I quote again, "what is the minimum size of tank?".

BTW, back at post #13 I addressed costs of making a holding area with a liner.

Fortunately Cdsdave's koi are nowhere near full grown, so even in a 100 gal aquarium they'd still have enough room to swim around a bit. Would they thrive in there? No. Could they be kept comfortable????

Personally, putting the fish he described into a 100 gallons seems cruel to me. In an emergency for a day or two, sure it would "do" ... We have a 150 gallon tank (not with fish in it), and I just am not seeing it, not to mention, post #13 would be cheaper.

Well, that is what the "debate" is really about isn't it. With that in mind, can someone please tell me exactly what size indoor tank would make the difference between being comfortable and thriving?

Subject to opinion, but large enough to reasonably move around in ... For a few months (as in 3-4) I would be thinking 400+ gallons ... Using a liner, you can short the depth for length and width (swim room) ...

I'm sure with good filtration and frequent water changes, those 4 small koi could be kept in a 100 gal aquarium for a few short months, and be kept at least as comfortable as birds kept in cages without enough room to fly around freely. Anybody in this debate have a budgie?

When we had our Macaw, she had a 5' wide, x 7' tall x 3' deep cage, but she was only in it at night ...

And I also believe there would be little to no risk of them developing psychosis and attacking Cdsdave come spring when he re-introduces them to back to the outside pond. but that's just me :dunno:

I was implying stress, which leads to plenty of issues ...

 

[Dave 54]

If it stands that the first fish has 1,000 gallons , then surely the second, third, fourth, fifth sixth etc
To say that the second etc only require 300 is a nonsence
Our own koi do very well in their 1,000 gallons with no complaints from our health officer more like praise for how our koi are doing.
I'm just reporting what I see .
This is one that will go on and on I think as others question this supposed ruling.
The old adage is true that maintaining water in a koi pond is like running a small scale sewerage works .i'e if your water is kept in optimum condition then problems will be far less likely to happen .
Maintaining these conditions should also go hand in hand with regular sysyem maintenance and good husbandry which is something I always say and it being a former QT pond from a dealership I have the filtration to maintain optimum conditions yet when I ask about this 1,000 gallon rule nobody can acctually put their finger on where it was first said whether its from my side of the pond or yours I'm totally unsure but all the people I know dont stick to it .
So we seem at an impass here it seems .

rgrds

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

A full grown Koi can be over 3 feet long. Seems a shame to make it suffer in anything smaller. Maybe we should all live in our closets?

 

[Dave 54]

Cdsdave,
Do you belong to Koiphen, the koi forum? It's pretty much devoted to koi only, although there are gardening threads etc. You might consider that site for information, as it is unlikely you're going to have a 2000 gallon tub / aquarium for them to over winter in. I mention 2000 gallons, as they typically advise 500 gallons per koi, although there are not hard and fast rules, especially if you have good filtration.

My pond is 1670 gallons and I have five koi. I may rehome one in the Spring, but they are doing well. Leaks are so maddening! Kim

See now its gone up well that now gives me two koi.
Kim we have 1,000 gallons and we have more koi than that living in our pond with our two oldest being 27.
I wouldnt say they were existing or comfortable , I'd say that they have lived so long because of love, care, attention to detail i;e Optimum water conditions, regular water changes, water testing, good nutritional food etc.
Learning to read your koi goes a hell of a long way to keeping them happy and hearty .

rgrds

Dave

 

[capewind]

If it stands that the first fish has 1,000 gallons , then surely the second, third, fourth, fifth sixth etc
To say that the second etc only require 300 is a nonsence
Our own koi do very well in their 1,000 gallons with no complaints from our health officer more like praise for how our koi are doing.
I'm just reporting what I see .
This is one that will go on and on I think as others question this supposed ruling.

The point Dave is a basic rule of thumb to use as a GUIDE ... We know it can be done, and it does take more dedication to do this ... would it be okay if you put all of these same fish into 500 gallons? 250 gallons, 125 gallons? Where would YOU draw the line? I've had a hell of a lot more fish in the basement ponds than I would ever maintain long term outside in 10x the water volume, but extra maintenance is required to do so.

 

[adavisus]

When atmospheric pressure is low, oxygen levels can be depleted overnight, so low at dawn that every fish is at risk gasping at the surface.

Even at 1,000 gallons per fish... Assuming no mechanical oxygenation, a reasonable plant load, koi are vulnerable to asphixiation and any opportunist predator...

Regards, andy
http://swglist.wordpress.com/
http://www.pinterest.com/adavisus/pondering/

 

[Dave 54]

When atmospheric pressure is low, oxygen levels can be depleted overnight, so low at dawn that every fish is at risk gasping at the surface.

Even at 1,000 gallons per fish... Assuming no mechanical oxygenation, a reasonable plant load, koi are vulnerable to asphixiation and any opportunist predator...

Regards, andy
http://swglist.wordpress.com/
http://www.pinterest.com/adavisus/pondering/

In the depth of pond we koi keepers run 4ft - 5ft preditors arent really a problem we are also strickley no plants in a formal British koi pond not sure about the formal US ones but I do believe they do the same.
Never had the problem of depleted oxygen in the pond both pond and filters have more than adequate oxygenation going on ..
capewind you said it rule of thumb who's thumb was it and who's rule you see my point no-one will own up to who said it but its often quoated yourside of the pond and everytime it comes out it causes a discussion as we are having now.

rgrds

Dave

 

[adavisus]

In the USA the worst case scenario, besides maybe half a dozen black outs a year being not unusual, a hurricane or snow storm can take power out for days

Then you find out what safety margin a pond with a ratio of less than 1,000 gallons per fish has.

At about that ratio, that is what will force fish to the surface and put them in harms way, in cool English waters... Even quicker in a much warmer American Summer

Regards, andy
http://swglist.wordpress.com/
http://www.pinterest.com/adavisus/pondering/

 

[Dave 54]

One of the main pieces of kit that a serious koi keeper has on standby at all times is a Generator that will power our ponds during periods of black outs which we dont get here in the UK.
We also have our pond protected at all times should a preditor try .
Our top temperature in the summer being around 22c so as you can see we are prepared for the worst with a Clarkes 700 watt generator which is tested on a three monthly regular basis throughout the year.
Our 6 mm hexagonal bungee strapped pond isnt going to let that preditor through no way thats why we bought a damn good one.

rgrds

Dave