Goldfish dying in pond

[j.w]

That's good and then if you want you could keep a few goldfish in there for several yrs and they'd prolly do just fine w/ good aeration and filtering, throw in some nice plants and you're good to go. If you don't feed your goldfish very often they will stay smaller longer but if you feed all the time they will get fat and lazy. You would be surprised on how well they can feed themselves on what they find that falls or flies into the pond. I didn't feed my goldfish for the first several yrs at all and they did great and grew slower and had less babies!

 

[sissy]

yikes fish explosion .The chemicals alone can kill fish .Those fountain pump filter kits seem to never work .They need cleaned all the time to half work .I had them in my small preformed 1st pond and had to clean them at least twice a day and only had 4 small fish .Koi produce a lot of waste .

 

[Waterbug]

I just went out and used the testing strips I got at the pet store, and the GH was 180, top of the scale, the KH was 240, top of the scale, the PH was 7.5, test strips say high, but not out of range, and the NO2 and NO3 both showed 0.

It just blows me away how bad it is for new pond owners, so many really horrible products that sound wonderful. No ammonia testing strips??? The single most important test. The main fish killer. :banghead3:

It's very rare for KH and GH to be too high, almost impossible. Only high end Koi keepers worry about high levels because it can/may effect Koi color. For most people high GH, KH means stable pH which means fish aren't killed by pH swings up and down.

NO2 is important, it's nitrite and is harmful to fish. It's what

I was told that two fountain kits would be ok and I did not need add an air pump or anything, but any opinion on that is appreciated.

The fountains aren't really needed, they don't add more O2. In theory they could lower O2 as opposed to running the pumps without the fountains because you'd get more movement. It's difficult concept, very people get it, but O2 only happens at the surface. Creating a current if more helpful for gas exchange.

Air pumps for example are popular for increasing O2. Most people think it's the bubbles but it's the bubbles pushing water. Creates a current and stirs the water. It just happens that creating the bubbles cost less electric than a water pump for moving the same amount of water.

Anyways, if you didn't like the fountains you could get rid of them. I mean if you only wanted them for O2.

 

[KB1ankenship]

Hello again, I was finally able to make it out to buy a test kit that tests for amonia as well as a couple other things. Here is what I came up with:

Ammonia (NH3/NH4) measured high at 4.0
Nitrite (NO2) measured at 0
Phosphate (PO3-4) measured at 0.5
wide range ph was at 7.0

I bought the test kit at a different pet store and spoke with a new person. She said it seems like I have a lot of fish for my pond, but it can be done with extra work. She said I may need to up my filter changes to twice a week, and do a 20 - 25 % water change about every week and a half. I told her I what water conditioner, algae, and water clearing chemicals I was using, and she said the Eco fix stuff isn't the greatest, as I do have a little murkiness in the water, and told me to use something called Accu Clear, but the other stuff would be fine.

She then said when I test for Ammonia, if its high, which it was, the most common reason she finds for that is overfeeding. I told her I feed the fish 3 times a day, except the for Algae sucker I feed once a day, if he eats the food I give him at all. I put about three good size pinches of goldfish food, and about 40-50 koi pellets each time I feed them. I know I'm supposed to only let them eat for a few minutes then take any uneaten food out, but I have had a hard time doing that.

It seems to me the fish don't eat when I watch them, they hide at the bottom, and when I walk away, they all come up to eat. I feed them, come inside for a couple minutes and then go out to take the food out. Sometimes though I get distracted with other things, and end up going out 10 - 15 minutes later.

She said it really sounds like I'm over feeding them, but testing would confirm. She said I should put less food in, watch them, if they dont' eat in a few minutes take it out. If there hungry, they won't care if I'm watching them, they will come up to eat. She also said I might want to feed them only twice a day.

Anyway, that's were I am right now, and as always, me and my fish appreciate all the input and help.

 

[JohnHuff]

Hi:
Seems like you have a lot of fish in a very small pond, you're feeding them a lot, you don't have enough filtration, you're putting a lot of chemicals in there and you don't have any plants!

The quickest way to improve your water chemistry would be to cut your feeding by 1/2 or 1/3. Maybe instead of 40-50 koi pellets each time, about 12-15 pellets each time. If you want to see your fish eat, just stick around for 10-15 mins and the fish will eventually come out.

You can keep that many fish, and you can do it without buying more chemicals from the store. I like plants, so I'd probably add a few plants myself and add more filtration capacity.

 

[KB1ankenship]

Hi John, thanks for the reply. I plan on feeding them way less then I have been, I'm just one of those people who always think everyone needs to eat more.

For filtration, I have two filter boxes on the only plug I have out there, I may be able to split another outlet off it but I would need to take a look to see if thats possible there. If I'm able to do that easily, you thinking a third filter box?

I really want to get plants, but not sure which ones would work, plants on the bottom, on the surface, both, any plant suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Waterbug]

Numbers are ppm?

 

[KB1ankenship]

Yes, they are ppm.

 

[Waterbug]

Most people are going to freak at the ammonia level. That level in most ponds would kill all fish in a very short time. Lots of people are going to tell you do to a complete water change because of the ammonia number. But ammonia is a little more complex than that.

Here comes a lot of info...welcome to the world of having a high fish load. To do it successively does take some effort in learning, testing and treating. Most people in your situation just let the fish keep dying until they have a fish load that can survive the conditions. They love their pets...but not that much.

Safe vs toxic ammonia...
Your ammonia test tested for NH3/NH4 (thanks for that info) which is total ammonia and is more properly called Total Ammonia. NH3 is unionized ammonia and is toxic to fish. NH4+ is ammonium ion and is safe. So the the question is, do you have 4.0 ppm NH3 or 4.0 ppm NH4+? Well we know it isn't all toxic because at 4.0ppm your fish would currently be dead.

There are test kits which tell the difference, Seachem has a couple.

But there is another way. NH3 and NH4+ convert back and forth depending on temp and pH. Lower temp and lower pH drives NH3 toward becoming NH4+. Tables are used. I don't know your water temp...but using this page and going down to the 4ppm chart, given your 7.0 pH number and a water temp of say 70F, your pond would have 0.017ppm toxic NH3 and 3.983ppm safe NH4+. That's better. But, you''l also notice even that small amount of NH3 is not good. As water temp increases so does the problem.

Ammonia binders...
You've been doing water changes and treating water. Part of those treatments I would assume contained ammonia binders which convert toxic NH3 into safe nontoxic cyclic amine which most kits read as part of total ammonia. So even if the chart says you have NH3 we still don't know if it's toxic. There are kits, like Seachem, which can tell the difference at least for some binders.

You're standing in a tub of gasoline and someone is going to offer you a match...
Without better tests I can't tell if the NH3 present is bound and safe or not. So I'd assume it's unsafe.

Many products are going to increase pH. In many cases this is a good thing as the products buffer the pH to keep it from swinging up and down which is a fish killer. Unfortunately many products won't even say they increase pH or the info is buried. They have to dumb things down in order to sell into the mass market where a cartoon picture of blue pond is as much info as most people want.

In your case increasing pH is the match that will kill your fish. Looking at the chart...if your pH increased even by 0.5 you'd be in a range where you'd expect all the fish to die within a day or two. Even if you have ammonia binder currently in the pond there probably isn't enough to handle that level of ammonia. Be very sure of what you add.

To do list...
1. Buy and add ammonia binder per the directions. Something like AmGuard which is just an ammonia binder. Most products, like what you've probably already used, are primarily used to remove chlorine and chloramine, but have some ammonia binder. The pure ammonia binder can be a cheaper treatment and give clearer directions. But go with what you can get.

2. Don't let a store employee sell you some other "great" product. Not today. At least not unless you quiz them and know their level of understanding at least the basics. You have to know the answers ahead of time, not that the answers sound good.

3. Have a glass of wine.

4. Think about longer term management.

4a. You could add an air pump if you wanted. Making sure O2 is max can keep the fish alive as the damage caused by ammonia can reduce their ability to take up O2. This is more to do with damage already done. In a pond with $$$ fish an air pump is a no-brainer. Feeder fish may be another matter. It's a harsh world. Also there can be a down side. The extra water movement can also drive off CO2 and that could increase pH. I'd probably skip the air pump. Keep things simple. If you saw fish gulping air I'd add the pump and risk the pH change.

Many people suggest water changes to reduce ammonia. Kind of small fix. A 25% is only going to reduce ammonia by less than 25% (new water adds ammonia).

Even more people will suggest to stop feeding. Not bad advice and I would take it. But it's also like suggesting a Band–Aid when you've cut your jugular. Better than nothing, but you still should probably see a doctor. Stop feeding doesn't fix anything today. It does reduce future ammonia, but only reduces the amount, fish still produce ammonia.

So I think binding the ammonia is the best option.

Things may not be that bad, they might be worst...
Your pH is 7.0...how sure are you? Sure it couldn't be 7.3? Test kits are only ballpark. The level of pH also changes throughout the day. That 7.0 if taken in the morning could be 8.5 in late afternoon.

It's strange to measure 0 nitrite with such high total ammonia. It would make me want to double check the tests.

Down the road, after you have control of ammonia, you can research pH buffering.

Longer term...
Once you're confident ammonia is bound there's more to do.

1. Measure KH, GH, and temp. Without that you don't know if you're having pH swings which is almost as bad as ammonia. Given your pH I'd guess KH is very low. Raising KH today will raise pH and maybe kill your fish. But you need to know water quality.

2. Test pH in am and pm. When reporting numbers say the time of day.

3. Add a bio filter...not a toy bio filter, a real grown-up bio filter. You have a small pond but you have the exact same issue the highest end Koi pond keepers have, high fish load. Once the ammonia is bound you have time to research and figure out which would work for you.

Stay away from the crappy worthless combo filters you see everywhere. Let's just make it easy and say all bio filters are worthless, certainly true in your case. The DIY Skippy filters are close to worthless. You need proven, works 24/7, bio filters. These include "Trickle Tower", "Shower Filter", and "Fluidized or Moving Bed Filter". State of the art, butt easy DIY and self cleaning. As in never have to be cleaned. Some people do replace the media in some of these every few years. These can also be placed in very attractive landscape structures like pottery, or built to look like water features.

In your case, because of the water quality, it may take a while to get a bio filter working well. But once you see ammonia drop to zero you will know you have a large enough, and functioning, bio filter.

What's killing the fish...
It's a good bet to say ammonia has probably been killing the fish. There is a time element. The longer fish are exposed the lower the ammonia level is needed to kill fish. Gulping air would have only been an indicator.

However, I wouldn't rule out pH swings yet either. KH will tell that story.

 

[Waterbug]

I just read an earlier post that said you have KH and GH strips...what were the results?

 

[JohnHuff]

KB, do you have a watergarden store or nursery around where you live? The best thing to do is to go there and check out their plant selection. I have water lilies and water hyacinths and some long bladed plants. Apart from cutting down on the food, I think getting plants will be the second most important thing you need to do.

Two types of filtration are needed in a pond, mechanical and biological. The mechanical removes solids from your pond, and bio filtration removes ammonia and nitrites and changes them into nitrates, which plants can use.

Your filter boxes are really mechanical filters, they remove solids from your pond water. In your first post, you say that you change the filters once a week. Do you mean to say that you take the filters out and throw them away? When you take them out, are they full of gunk? Either way, I don't think you need more mechanical filtration as those two filter boxes should be plenty for such a small pond.

A biofilter is just a box or device containing media, which is something with a lot of surface area, and a way to run water over it. Good bacteria occurs naturally and will colonize the media in time. The more fish you have, the more good bacteria you will need to biofilter all that ammonia and nitrite. The way to get more good (naturally occurring) bacteria is to provide more surface area in your pond, but you already have a lot of surface area, in the small pebbles and rocks in your pond. I really think your fish are dying because there has been no time to allow the good bacteria to build up and so there isn't enough of it, so that's why your fish were dying so quickly early on. It takes 4-6 weeks for the bacteria to colonize your pond.

You can create more surface area by making or buying a biofilter. But are you ready to make some big changes to you pond? I think you can make a pretty simple DIY biofilter, but the problem will be hiding it. You'll probably need to make a nook and cranny amongst those rocks and put the filter there.

 

[crsublette]

Stay away from those 5-in-1 paper tests if ya don't like guessing about the numbers that can severely impair fish immune system and even cause death.

Only be concerned with high pH IF : 1) you do not have adequate bio-filtering to offset the increased NH3 ammonia toxicity, 2) you do not use an ammonium binder chemical if you are overstocked with fish and feed too much, 3) you do not maintain water changing at some level. Been reading also how high pH increases limestone residue if GH is high. Also, certain carnivorous plants will not be 100% in high pH. Only good thing about high pH: 1)binds more carbon dioxide; 2) don't have to worry about pH swings.

Low pH has its problem as well. It is just easier to fix the problems of high pH when versus low pH. High pH ya can get away with having unlike a low pH that is around 6.5~7.0.

 

[KB1ankenship]

Hello all, the input you are all giving me is really helping. So today, I did a 25% water change. When I change the water out, I have a 20 gallon cooler I fill with water, and then based on the 20 gallons, I add the water conditioner (called "Stress Coat"), and the stuff called "algefix". After I let the water sit in the open cooler for about an hour next to the pond, I take a 10 gallon bucket and take 4 buckets worth out of the pond. I then drain the cooler into the pond, which takes about 15 minutes. After the 20 gallons is added in, I repeat the process of adding another 20 gallons.

After I did the water change, I took off for a dentist appointment, went and got lunch, then came home and tested the Ammonia. Right now I tested twice, and both times it came up 1 ppm.

With my 2 filters, they are just these shoe box looking things I put the pumps in. They have a coarse filter up top, a foam type filter below, and then these things called bio balls under that (10 of them about the size of a golf ball). Because there was some space under the foam filter, I took a bag of filter stuff kinda like a weird cotton ball, and filled in all the open space under the foam filter pad with it. I'm sure it doesn't filter the micro stuff, but it has seemed to do a good job of keeping the water clear.

When I say I change them twice a week, I have two extra sets of coarse and foam filters, so I pull the ones being used out, pull the cotton ball type filter stuff out, and then replace the everything with clean stuff. The dirty coarse and foam filters I just use a hose to spray them out and let them air dry to be used again later. The white cotton ball filter stuff that is dirty, I just throw away.

When I change the filters twice a week, they always have debris in them, but they are never really saturated. The foam filter I have is blue, and the debris usually turns it a bit green, but that will be at the center of the foam filter only, a kinda circle about 2 - 3 inches in diameter. If I leave them for a week before changing, there is much more green space on the filter then blue, so I figured changing them twice a week would be better. The white filter stuff I throw away is usually has a little brown in it, but is never more brown than white, unless I let it go a week without a change, then little more brown than white.

I do have a floating filter I got at home depot that is supposed to be a UV filter. It never seemed to do anything so I took it out, I agree, all in one was a $100 floating pile of s---omething.

For the plants, we have a really great nursery near us. I know it has to be great because my girlfriend told me everyone on facebook is raving about it, sorry for the sarcasm, couldn't help it. We plan on going to the nursery this weekend to see what we can find.

The little paper strips are all I have that test for GH and KH, and when I tested they were both the top of the scale. We have really hard well water where I live, so I'm not really sure how to "soften" it up. The first guy I spoke to at the first pet store who I had test the water for me said it was nothing to worry about, but with his past performance, I am of course worried.

With the other test kit I got last night, putting drops into vials with the pond water sample type test, if I was not 100% sure about the color matching, I assumed the worst and went with the higher number just to be safe. My NH3/NH4 color test has the following breakdown all in ppm:

0
0.25
0.5
1.0
2.0
4.0
8.0

The color on the test looked to be somewere between 2.0 and 4.0, a bit darker then 2.0 but a bit lighter than 4.0, so I went with the 4.0 to be safe.

For the NO2 test, the color was exactly at 0, I had no question about it, so I am sure of that one. It does go 0 then 0.25, then 0.5, but 0 is light blue and 0.25 is purple, so I was very sure of that one.

for PO3-4 the test goes:

0
0.25
0.5
1.0, etc.

The color looked really similar for 0.25 and 0.5, so not being sure I went with 0.5

The PH test goes:

5.0
6.0
6.5
7.0
7.5 etc..

That test the color was very similar for 7.0 and 7.5 and I was again just going with the higher number.

We live about 15 miles inland just south of Los Angeles, very near Long Beach, so the weather is almost always warm, and almost always sunny. My pond is about half in direct sunlight all day, so at least in the last 4 - 5 weeks, the water has not been cool. It does cool down a bit at night, but during the day, it gets a lot of direct sunlight in a very warm climate

I am going to see if I can get a temperature reading of my pond, not sure if I have anything for that. Once I get the temperature, I will check that chart.

I really don't want any of my fish dying, as that is kinda cruel to me to let them die until balance is acheived, sounds so Monty Pythonish. That being said, my koi and algae sucker fish are all alive and active, no issues I can tell, the only fish lost cost 0.29 cents, but even so, I prefer to do what I can to keep it from happening.

For long term, my girlfriend and I will need to discuss what we think will be best. Since I have the fish, and the time and desire to do what is needed to make it work, I want to at least give it a try. Obviously I bought into the aquarium rock for the bottom, a crummy floating filter, two bottom of pond filters, two pumps, two filter kits, more chemicals and treatments then I want to count, plus various testing kits thus far. Also, I had to buy green and brown koi fish pellets, you never know what they will like better, got to keep them happy, right?

 

[KB1ankenship]

So today I did another 25% water change, and waited a couple hours and tested. With my test tube with drops kit, my Ammonia (NH3/NH4) was at 1.0, my wide range ph went up a little to 7.5, the phosphate (PO3-4) is at 0.25, and my nitrite (no2) is still at 0.

I also used the paper test strips and came up with GH: 120, KH: 240, PH: 7.5, NO2: 0, and NO3: 0. Tonight when my girlfriend gets home, we are going to go out to look for a thermometer and ammonia binder stuff. Tomorrow we will hit the nursery and see what kind of plants we can come up with.

Hopefully with that, and me feeding them less, I can get the water under control and go look for a good tower bio filter this weekend.

 

[addy1]

Good job heading in the right direction! If you can't find a trickle tower, you can build one, I know someone posted ways to build them pretty easily