getting my fish drunk...... seriously, watch.

[crsublette]

crsublette is there a way to introduce that into the pond or is this one of the main ingredients responsible for algae growth as well. I think that this is normally produced by fish waste is it not?

Algae is not simple thus involving many species. Algae is nature's most efficient bio-filter and important food source for fish fingerlings. "Removing P and N will remove algae" of a particular species, which will then be replaced with something else. This is what is essentially trying to be done here, that is to replace the potentially harmful or ugly algae with something else.

Fish waste contain a tremendous amount of phosphorus and most of it is organic phosphorus, that is metaphosphates, which require mineralization or to be solubized by phosphate reducing microorganisms. The mineralization or solubilizing process converts the metaphosphates into orthophosphates, which only a significant portion of this becomes available to plants. Vast amount of phosphate is not detectable with typical aquarium/pond test kits since these test kits only test for the reactive phosphates, that is orthophophates. There are test kits, such as from HACH, that test for all phosphates by involving various acid digestion methods so to modify the organic phosphates.

Essentially, the hobby phosphate test kits are testing for readily plant available phosphates rather than the phosphate"food bank", which algae and microorganisms can more easily tap into the "food bank".

Fish waste is constantly dumping phosphates and ammonia into the water, except like 70% or so ammonia is actually excreted from the gills.

All of this waste and reduction adds to the reduction of oxygen in the pond and modifies the diversity of microorganisms and frequency of algae occurrences.

This amongst other reasons is why rock/gravel ponds stress more about the importance of fish density since these objects interfere with waste removal. For other ponds, fish density is only stressed moreso due to physiological concerns.

I have recently become more and more involved with aquaculture (fish) farming, which is said to state where I am coming from. Although, there are many crossovers that can be applied to aquatic hobbies since the aquaculture industry is very concerned about Food Conversion Ratios (FCR) so to reduce food costs. Overfed or overcrowded tanks impacts fish health thus reduces FCR thus significantly increases costs. These folk are just as concerned, or possibly moreso, than others about the fish.

How the pond is built and how waste is removed makes all the difference on the nutrient accumulation within ponds. Fish waste is better mineralized outside the pond rather than inside the pond. If you're a watergardener, then simply slowly reintroduce the mineralized solution to the pond.

Mother Nature is more concerned about the pond's eco-system rather than specifically your fish or plants. So, be careful with how much faith is given to her to keep your pond healthy.

So... stay on top of cleaning your filters, maintaining your plants, emptying skimmer baskets, maintaining the biofilter, removing significant amount of debris and sludge, maintaining good water circulation either from pump and aeration, do seasonal large water changed, maintain the water chemistry ... and, if ya have the desire or when able, improve the pond's design and filtration including plant involvement.

First, try improving these above variables to fix your problem.

Only use salt, oxidizers, chemicals, or "other" as the very last resort of action to fix a problem or other techniques if you want a quicker response.

 

[crsublette]

crsublette is there a way to introduce that into the pond or is this one of the main ingredients responsible for algae growth as well. I think that this is normally produced by fish waste is it not?

As for your first question...

For free floating plants, you can add monopotassium phosphate, but this will increase likelihood of algae. Do not add too much of this too fast since it is quite acidic and will consume some alkalinity fast thus potentially lowering pH. Wait 24 hours between dosing and rebuffer your alkalinity if it needs it. I would only do this if plant deficiencies start to show. You would need to Google your specific plant to learn how to identify a phosphorous deficiency.

For potted plants you can mix in a time release fertilizer into the pot medium, but best to ask others on this one since I am not familiar with these type of time release aquatic fertilizers.

 

[tbendl]

Thank you Charles. It seems that in order to fertilize the flowers, you feed the algae. Risk/reward at it's finest.

 

[crsublette]

Thank you Charles. It seems that in order to fertilize the flowers, you feed the algae. Risk/reward at it's finest.

Pretty much. Or just dont fertilize and allow the plant to try to do what it can.

I have heard good things about the time released fertilizers mixed into the pots and avoiding significantly feeding the algae. From what I remember, I recall folk using osmocote and tomatoes spikes. I think this would be the best way to do it if you want to fertilize the plants. Best to ask others on this though that have more experience with doing it.

 

[tbendl]

I am ashamed to say that I did not know that fertilizer contained phosphates. I have osmocote planted in with my plants. Probably too much by the look of the green water. I'm learning, gradually and slowly.

 

[Jeff Zimnisky]

I like turtles.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

I like turtles.

Turtles indeed.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

I stopped dosing and will continue when temps get above 50. Worked pretty sweet and happy with the results. Cleaned all my algae and prepared 4 winter. Probably the cheapest spring filter prep too.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

1.008 specific gravity? Wow.

For the unaware, specific gravity is a more precise measurement of salinity. 1.008 specific gravity is 10.6ppt, which is 1.06% salinity.

Ummm... hope it does not remain that high for long. This is considered to be a "bath dip" salinity concentration for freshwater fish that are accustomed to natural low salinity levels such as around 0.08%, especially for koi and goldfish. Although, I have heard of folk using a 0.80% salinity with Elbagin for very long delivery trips.

I know I have seen freshwater fish survive 0.60% salt baths for 2 weeks to kill the basic parasites (i.e., Chilodonella and Ich), but not for sure about 1% salt bath for 2 weeks.

For someone that "does not know what will happen", you may well soon find out what will happen.

It'll be interesting to read what will happen.

I breed guppies transferred to salt @ 1.026 or 35 ppt. The live in there for a year, so i am trying to see if folks have tried it with ponds. Some plants may die, but I'm 95 percent sure the koi will be not affected.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Algae is not simple thus involving many species. Algae is nature's most efficient bio-filter and important food source for fish fingerlings. "Removing P and N will remove algae" of a particular species, which will then be replaced with something else. This is what is essentially trying to be done here, that is to replace the potentially harmful or ugly algae with something else.

Fish waste contain a tremendous amount of phosphorus and most of it is organic phosphorus, that is metaphosphates, which require mineralization or to be solubized by phosphate reducing microorganisms. The mineralization or solubilizing process converts the metaphosphates into orthophosphates, which only a significant portion of this becomes available to plants. Vast amount of phosphate is not detectable with typical aquarium/pond test kits since these test kits only test for the reactive phosphates, that is orthophophates. There are test kits, such as from HACH, that test for all phosphates by involving various acid digestion methods so to modify the organic phosphates.

Essentially, the hobby phosphate test kits are testing for readily plant available phosphates rather than the phosphate"food bank", which algae and microorganisms can more easily tap into the "food bank".

Fish waste is constantly dumping phosphates and ammonia into the water, except like 70% or so ammonia is actually excreted from the gills.

All of this waste and reduction adds to the reduction of oxygen in the pond and modifies the diversity of microorganisms and frequency of algae occurrences.

This amongst other reasons is why rock/gravel ponds stress more about the importance of fish density since these objects interfere with waste

Could you please link pictures of your set up during your time of carbon dosing?

 

[crsublette]

I breed guppies transferred to salt @ 1.026 or 35 ppt. The live in there for a year, so i am trying to see if folks have tried it with ponds. Some plants may die, but I'm 95 percent sure the koi will be not affected.

There is a significant volume of documentation indicating freshwater guppies can uniquely withstand incredibly high salinity levels, except you will struggle to find the same true for Cyprinus Carpio (i.e., Koi).

What is driving this confidence in the belief that koi will not be affected by 35ppt salinity?

There are already occurrences of using a 0.60~0.80% (6~8ppt) for a significant period of 2 weeks. So, if at 1.06% salinity, then would not be a surprise to me if they "survive" to some extent.

What methodology are you using to suggest the "koi will not be affected" whilst and after the fish experience 1.06% salinity?

Could you please link pictures of your set up during your time of carbon dosing?

None is required since other's wisdom is the best teacher lest you do not mind being labeled as a fool for invoking wisdom lacking experiences as a teacher.


Due to what is taught by other's wisdom, does not surprise me creating bacterial blooms to serve as a nutrient sponge would work.


Isn't your point here to show that it will work?

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

There is a significant volume of documentation indicating freshwater guppies can uniquely withstand incredibly high salinity levels, except you will struggle to find the same true for Cyprinus Carpio (i.e., Koi).

What is driving this confidence in the belief that koi will not be affected by 35ppt salinity?

There are already occurrences of using a 0.60~0.80% (6~8ppt) for a significant period of 2 weeks. So, if at 1.06% salinity, then would not be a surprise . me if they "survive" to some extent.

What methodology are you using to suggest the "koi will not be affected" whilst and after the fish experience 1.06% salinity?




None is required since other's wisdom is the best teacher lest you do not mind being labeled as a fool for invoking wisdom lacking experiences as a teacher.


Due to what is taught by other's wisdom, does not surprise me creating bacterial blooms to serve as a nutrient sponge would work.


Isn't your point here to show that it will work?

I do not know if a koi will survive 1.008, I am just suggesting that they are a bottom feeder that can evolve to live in non desired areas.
I'm not here to be a 'teacher' I'm just here to have fun and see others with a similar hobby.
I like seeing other folks that have actually done things, not talk about them.
Am I trying to prove a point about carbon dosing? No, it's been done before.
Do I need a ff to remove the doc? Nope.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

What methodology are you using to suggest the "koi will not be affected"

It's called I stick the fish in 12 ppt and see if it lives methodology.

 

[crsublette]

I do not know if a koi will survive 1.008, I am just suggesting that they are a bottom feeder that can evolve to live in non desired areas.
I'm not here to be a 'teacher' I'm just here to have fun and see others with a similar hobby.
I like seeing other folks that have actually done things, not talk about them.
Am I trying to prove a point about carbon dosing? No, it's been done before.
Do I need a ff to remove the doc? Nope.

It's called I stick the fish in 12 ppt and see if it lives methodology.

You are absolutely proving a point here. Your point here is that carbon dosing is working for you, which is fine.


In regards to the salinity, I believe they absolutely will survive at that salinity but damage is not clearly shown unless you know how to take a microscope to the fish's blood and know what to look for.

To better clarify this issue, Cyprinus Carpio (koi) is a stenohaline organism, which means the fish can survive a wide range of salinity only from freshwater (0.01~0.49% salinity) to brackish (0.5~3.5% salinity) as long as the progression is slow. To instantly jump the salinity from ~0.10% to 1.06% is much like the result of whenever any water chemistry parameters is done too rapidly.


If turns out you do not need a FF to remove the doc, then this simply means the bacterial bloom was just not large and the pond is able to absorb the resulting nutrient dump from the bacterial bloom decaying.


There actually are biological oxygen demand concerns when implementing these methods. Just because nothing wrong happens to you does not mean others will be safe.

Just because you could not get a FF to work in a freshwater pond does not mean FF does not work in a freshwater pond.

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

You are absolutely proving a point here. Your point here is that carbon dosing is working for you, which is fine.


In regards to the salinity, I believe they absolutely will survive at that salinity but damage is not clearly shown unless you know how to take a microscope to the fish's blood and know what to look for.

To better clarify this issue, Cyprinus Carpio (koi) is a stenohaline organism, which means the fish can survive a wide range of salinity only from freshwater (0.01~0.49% salinity) to brackish (0.5~3.5% salinity) as long as the progression is slow. To instantly jump the salinity from ~0.10% to 1.06% is much like the result of whenever any water chemistry parameters is done too rapidly.


If turns out you do not need a FF to remove the doc, then this simply means the bacterial bloom was just not large and the pond is able to absorb the resulting nutrient dump from the bacterial bloom decaying.


There actually are biological oxygen demand concerns when implementing these methods. Just because nothing wrong happens to you does not mean others will be safe.

Just because you could not get a FF to work does not mean FF does not work in a freshwater pond.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Actually your wrong. Koi can safely live in 10 to 12ppt. They can live in upto 16ppt. Google it, it is true.
And you are also wrong about the ff. There is not just 1 way to get docs out. Your mind is focused on ff because you have not tried it. Please stay off my page, I will provide pictures and instructions on how to do it, you're kinda stepping on my toes.
We will get into the plants later too, but one step at a time.