Feeding Temp Question?

[Smaug]

I havnt heard of it either before I saw dave54 post about less then 2 c the fish being near death.

 

[MitchM]

Yes, I know Dave's position on that.
We have another member here, Colleen, also here in Alberta, that has 25 year old koi that have done fine outdoors in near freezing water.

 

[barryian]

I have gotten generally the same message from random articles on here about not feeding Koi at a low temp but I need to know what is that temp and also if the temp stays that low for a long period then won't the fish starve ?

I have gotten generally the same message from random articles on here about not feeding Koi at a low temp but I need to know what is that temp and also if the temp stays that low for a long period then won't the fish starve ?

Wow, people are feeding their koi at 39 degrees? Well, through my experience and knowledge over the years, in 23 plus years, I've always stopped feeding my koi at 50 degrees. When I do feed them in spring and fall, and the water temps drop into the 50's, I feed them a wheatgerm mix, honey nut cheerios and basically carb food, either very low protein or no protein. When that water is leveled out at 50 degrees, I stop feeding them, usually in the November.
I start feeding again the end of March but, that really depends on what the temp is.

No, the fish won't starve, absolutely not, as my koi don't eat from mid to end of November through almost April. Keep in mind, the koi have no stomach as it is basically their intestines where the food goes. If the temps are low, the koi can't digest and the food can rot in the intestine causing a bacterial infection probably leading to death in the cold water. So, if you feel sorry for them and feed them, you're doing more harm than good. I saw someone who said they feed them at 39 degrees. I haven't heard of that and I'm surprised the fish will even eat as they're usually in a semi hibernation state at those temps.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Wow, people are feeding their koi at 39 degrees? Well, through my experience and knowledge over the years, in 23 plus years, I've always stopped feeding my koi at 50 degrees. When I do feed them in spring and fall, and the water temps drop into the 50's, I feed them wheatgerm and basically
all carb food, either very low protein or no protein. When that water is leveled out at 50 degrees, I stop feeding them, usually in the November.
I start feeding again the end of March but, that really depends on what the temp is.

No, the fish won't starve, absolutely not, as my koi don't eat from mid to end of November through almost April. Keep in mind, the koi have no stomach as it is basically their intestines where the food goes. If the temps are low, the koi can't digest and the food can rot in the intestine causing a bacterial infection probably leading to death in the cold water. So, if you feel sorry for them and feed them, you're doing more harm than good. I saw someone who said they feed them at 39 degrees. I haven't heard of that and I'm surprised the fish will even eat as they're usually in a semi hibernation state at those temps.

"If the temps are low, the koi can't digest and the food can rot in the intestine causing a bacterial infection probably leading to death in the cold water."
This claim has been around for years. There is no scientific data to support it, but plenty to refute it.

See post #16 in this thread.

 

[barryian]

"If the temps are low, the koi can't digest and the food can rot in the intestine causing a bacterial infection probably leading to death in the cold water."
This claim has been around for years. There is no scientific data to support it, but plenty to refute it.

See post #16 in this thread.

Yep, around 23 years and @Meyer, what might you think the reason is that we don't feed our koi high protein in cold water temps. If you do, you're looking for trouble. I doubt there is much data to refute that statement. Really? Meyer, what type of pond do you have?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Yep, around 23 years and @Meyer, what might you think the reason is that we don't feed our koi high protein in cold water temps. If you do, you're looking for trouble. I doubt there is much data to refute that statement. Really? Meyer, what type of pond do you have?

No reference was made by me to high protein food. The subject is whether Koi should be fed (and that they will eat) at temperatures under 10C. Scientific research has shown that Koi (Carp) continue to eat at temperatures approaching freezing. If anyone has a problem with that data, I suggest that they take it up with the science community.
Just because a certain belief has been followed for 20+ years is not a guarantee that there is any scientific basis to that belief. For years, ponders have been under the belief that Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter were the lead players in the Nitrogen cycle. Extensive research in the past few years has shown this to be anything but dogma. In fact, in established fish populated aquatic systems Archaea and Nitrospira are the predominant players with the former lead players conspicuously in a minor role if even present at all.
Old closely held beliefs are hard to let go of, but in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence reality does rear its ugly head and can't be ignored.

You already know what type of pond that I have....full eco-system.

 

[Lisak1]

Old closely held beliefs are hard to let go of, but in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence reality does rear its ugly head and can't be ignored.

So true, in so many facets of life.

 

[Dave 54]

When coming out of the winter it is and always has been advisable to start out with a Wheatgerm feed that is easily digestable by the koi [nowadays with a garlic mix].
Working towards the late spring when it is advisable to switch to a higher protien food during the summer early Autumn so that the koi can lay down enough reserves to carry them through the lean cold winter times.
The higher protien feeds should be cut mid autum and by the late autumn they should only be being fed a Wheatgerm and garlic mix again till we hit 10c then stop .
The higher protein pellets cannot be digested by the kois intestine as the fish shuts down for the winter and can cause it to rot in the koi's intestine which we dont want
As to my stance of using what at least may be a worst case senario happening , isnt it better to be informed of what to do should it happen than not at all.?
The truth is we cant trust the weather to fit into a regular pattern anymore can we, just look at the polar vortex above the US and Canada last winter or the bad weather and flooding the UK recieved becaue of it for an example
At 2c the fish has all but shut its systems down and is in a torpid state, but if the temperature continues to drop from 2c to 0c or bellow that of 0.c then there is a high possiblility of sleepy sickness ocurring and if this is not rectified by the raising the ponds temperature 1c at a time then the afflicted koi will die.
So it is only logical at 2c the koi is entering into a danagerous state and is more dead than alive .
Leave the afflicted koi suffering with sleepy sickness by not raising the ponds temperature then they will die ,
Another problem we have to take care of is maintaining a hole in the ice, we use policarbonate roofing sheets, some use Hundereds of small balls floated on a ponds surface others use inline heaters, some a small heaterto keep a hole in the ice .
Mitch yes callingcolleen does run a pond throughout the Canadian winter and is ice free , but should she remove the cattle trough heater from her pond what will happen then ?

Dave

 

[barryian]

No reference was made by me to high protein food. The subject is whether Koi should be fed (and that they will eat) at temperatures under 10C. Scientific research has shown that Koi (Carp) continue to eat at temperatures approaching freezing. If anyone has a problem with that data, I suggest that they take it up with the science community.
Just because a certain belief has been followed for 20+ years is not a guarantee that there is any scientific basis to that belief. For years, ponders have been under the belief that Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter were the lead players in the Nitrogen cycle. Extensive research in the past few years has shown this to be anything but dogma. In fact, in established fish populated aquatic systems Archaea and Nitrospira are the predominant players with the former lead players conspicuously in a minor role if even present at all.
Old closely held beliefs are hard to let go of, but in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence reality does rear its ugly head and can't be ignored.

You already know what type of pond that I have....full eco-system.

No Meyer. I had asked but I don't recall you ever mentioning your pond. I've only heard of Nitrospira and never heard of Archaea so now you've given me more to read about. I have no idea what either do. I read a lot, not scientific data though. I don't really come across definitive scientific data in everyday in pond articles. Is much of this data hypothesis based or definitive fact as you did say scientific data? Is this data the new word, replacing the old? I'm not doubting or questioning you, I just want to know. Koi continue to eat, probably very little and does the data say what happens to them after that?

Just my own observation, but as temps drop to that 10C level, when I basically stop feeding, my koi do slow down in their desire to eat. That tells me something along with what I've read from my day one until now. It seems most people throughout my 23 + years, stop feeding at a reasonable temp of 10C. That data on temperature and feeding might be correct, but I don't know of any koi keeper nor friends or have I read of anyone who feeds at 5C, let alone lower. Actually I did see someone in the forum that does.

My wife is a hospice nurse. Chemo therapy cures or puts many in remission, on the other hand, the chemo, not the cancer kills many too. With feeding at a low temp, I believe it's been proven when koi shut down, the potential for food to rot in the intestine is high. Scientific data unfortunately changes as we've seen. Do this, do that, oops and 10 years later it changes again. Nothing is definitive in life, except what works. Theres no black and white, definitive right and wrong at least not in my life. My old beliefs are my beliefs but tried and true from my experience, but not based on my own knowledge only, but a culmination of many many things I've read.

I'm not about to experiment now based on scientific data .... Thanks though for the info ... I'll read about those bacteria.

 

[barryian]

When coming out of the winter it is and always has been advisable to start out with a Wheatgerm feed that is easily digestable by the koi [nowadays with a garlic mix].
Working towards the late spring when it is advisable to switch to a higher protien food during the summer early Autumn so that the koi can lay down enough reserves to carry them through the lean cold winter times.
The higher protien feeds should be cut mid autum and by the late autumn they should only be being fed a Wheatgerm and garlic mix again till we hit 10c then stop .
The higher protein pellets cannot be digested by the kois intestine as the fish shuts down for the winter and can cause it to rot in the koi's intestine which we dont want
As to my stance of using what at least may be a worst case senario happening , isnt it better to be informed of what to do should it happen than not at all.?
The truth is we cant trust the weather to fit into a regular pattern anymore can we, just look at the polar vortex above the US and Canada last winter or the bad weather and flooding the UK recieved becaue of it for an example
At 2c the fish has all but shut its systems down and is in a torpid state, but if the temperature continues to drop from 2c to 0c or bellow that of 0.c then there is a high possiblility of sleepy sickness ocurring and if this is not rectified by the raising the ponds temperature 1c at a time then the afflicted koi will die.
So it is only logical at 2c the koi is entering into a danagerous state and is more dead than alive .
Leave the afflicted koi suffering with sleepy sickness by not raising the ponds temperature then they will die ,
Another problem we have to take care of is maintaining a hole in the ice, we use policarbonate roofing sheets, some use Hundereds of small balls floated on a ponds surface others use inline heaters, some a small heaterto keep a hole in the ice .
Mitch yes callingcolleen does run a pond throughout the Canadian winter and is ice free , but should she remove the cattle trough heater from her pond what will happen then ?

Dave

I couldn't agree more! Nice !!!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

When coming out of the winter it is and always has been advisable to start out with a Wheatgerm feed that is easily digestable by the koi [nowadays with a garlic mix].
Working towards the late spring when it is advisable to switch to a higher protien food during the summer early Autumn so that the koi can lay down enough reserves to carry them through the lean cold winter times.
The higher protien feeds should be cut mid autum and by the late autumn they should only be being fed a Wheatgerm and garlic mix again till we hit 10c then stop .
The higher protein pellets cannot be digested by the kois intestine as the fish shuts down for the winter and can cause it to rot in the koi's intestine which we dont want
As to my stance of using what at least may be a worst case senario happening , isnt it better to be informed of what to do should it happen than not at all.?
The truth is we cant trust the weather to fit into a regular pattern anymore can we, just look at the polar vortex above the US and Canada last winter or the bad weather and flooding the UK recieved becaue of it for an example
At 2c the fish has all but shut its systems down and is in a torpid state, but if the temperature continues to drop from 2c to 0c or bellow that of 0.c then there is a high possiblility of sleepy sickness ocurring and if this is not rectified by the raising the ponds temperature 1c at a time then the afflicted koi will die.
So it is only logical at 2c the koi is entering into a danagerous state and is more dead than alive .
Leave the afflicted koi suffering with sleepy sickness by not raising the ponds temperature then they will die ,
Another problem we have to take care of is maintaining a hole in the ice, we use policarbonate roofing sheets, some use Hundereds of small balls floated on a ponds surface others use inline heaters, some a small heaterto keep a hole in the ice .
Mitch yes callingcolleen does run a pond throughout the Canadian winter and is ice free , but should she remove the cattle trough heater from her pond what will happen then ?

Dave

Your reference to Koi Sleepy Sickness/Carp Edema Virus has me confused. All of the information that I have accumulated concerning this disease is that 1) It occurs in Spring and Autumn and 2) it only occurs at temperatures between 15C and 25C. Are you meaning a different disease?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

No Meyer. I had asked but I don't recall you ever mentioning your pond. I've only heard of Nitrospira and never heard of Archaea so now you've given me more to read about. I have no idea what either do. I read a lot, not scientific data though. I don't really come across definitive scientific data in everyday in pond articles. Is much of this data hypothesis based or definitive fact as you did say scientific data? Is this data the new word, replacing the old? I'm not doubting or questioning you, I just want to know. Koi continue to eat, probably very little and does the data say what happens to them after that?

Just my own observation, but as temps drop to that 10C level, when I basically stop feeding, my koi do slow down in their desire to eat. That tells me something along with what I've read from my day one until now. It seems most people throughout my 23 + years, stop feeding at a reasonable temp of 10C. That data on temperature and feeding might be correct, but I don't know of any koi keeper nor friends or have I read of anyone who feeds at 5C, let alone lower. Actually I did see someone in the forum that does.

My wife is a hospice nurse. Chemo therapy cures or puts many in remission, on the other hand, the chemo, not the cancer kills many too. With feeding at a low temp, I believe it's been proven when koi shut down, the potential for food to rot in the intestine is high. Scientific data unfortunately changes as we've seen. Do this, do that, oops and 10 years later it changes again. Nothing is definitive in life, except what works. Theres no black and white, definitive right and wrong at least not in my life. My old beliefs are my beliefs but tried and true from my experience, but not based on my own knowledge only, but a culmination of many many things I've read.

I'm not about to experiment now based on scientific data .... Thanks though for the info ... I'll read about those bacteria.

My prime goal is not to change the husbandry practices that you and other established pondkeepers follow in maintaining your pond, but rather educate novices in this hobby that although old methods may work, research has uncovered new data that indicate a newer approach may be better. They are entitled to a choice of all options.

 

[Dave 54]

Your reference to Koi Sleepy Sickness/Carp Edema Virus has me confused. All of the information that I have accumulated concerning this disease is that 1) It occurs in Spring and Autumn and 2) it only occurs at temperatures between 15C and 25C. Are you meaning a different disease?

What is termed sleeping sickness but if you recall you last year you called it sleepy sickness.
Its mentioned in the Koi health book I have by Tony Pitham and Keith holmes ISBN 1842860992 on page 129 in part three of the book
Just checked up on what your talking about m'mmm I'm even more confused than before :-

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=153798&CultureCode=en

It has to be two seperate things Meyer there is no mention of sunken eyes or swollen gills in The book I mentioned

Dave

 

[MitchM]

..
Mitch yes callingcolleen does run a pond throughout the Canadian winter and is ice free , but should she remove the cattle trough heater from her pond what will happen then ?

Dave

She would save a lot of money, Dave.

Seriously, the heat output of a cattle trough heater is miniscule compared to the heating capacity of the earth.
Combine that with the heat loss of a pond, using the calculator in my signature below (has anyone actually gone through the math exercise, besides myself?..............), all a cattle trough heater does is provide a larger viewing window into the pond.
That's an expensive window.

Using a cattle trough heater is like standing in an unheated house and lighting a match, holding your hand over it and thinking, wow, that match is hot! Good thing it's heating the whole house!


For example, if I remember correctly, my pond would require 186,000 BTU of heat to maintain a reasonable temperature (10 celcius) in my pond during typical winter weather ( -30 celcius)
A 1500 watt heater puts out approximately 5000 BTU's.
Nowhere near enough to make any difference.

Maintaining an ice cap and using an active aeration product will both save money and keep the pond warmer, if you are concerned about water temperature.
If you have any studies that demonstrate that koi are "near death" below 2 celcius, I would be interested to see them.

.

 

[MitchM]

I don't know if you remember, but I tried a 1500 watt heater my first winter with a pond, and it froze over solid.

.