drawing up plans for water garden with fish

[Maggie71]

Invest some time in thinking about how you intend to clean your pond and what you expect for water clarity.

I've read people's posts about muck on the bottom of their pond, assume fish poop, dead leaves, etc. A skimmer would catch some of this correct? How do you get the rest out, a net?

 

[sissy]

swimming pool net

 

[gardengimp]

swimming pool net

What do you do with the swimming pool net?

 

[sissy]

I clean the muck off the bottom .It has a long pole on it so I can extend it out .People use it on pools to take stuff off the top of the water .I buy the deeper net so I can also catch the fish with it too .

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I've read people's posts about muck on the bottom of their pond, assume fish poop, dead leaves, etc. A skimmer would catch some of this correct? How do you get the rest out, a net?

Very good question.
This is exactly why I have a bottom drain and and why I would recommend them. My current pond has a bottom drain and works excellently at vacuuming up all the debri and fish poop off the bottom of my pond, My previous pond had no bottom drain and there was always a layer of sediment on the bottom of the pond, it was a pain scooping out all that muck with a net, and, as you can imagine, it makes a mess of the water while you're scooping it out.
Bottom drains really aren't that complex, you just have to understand that they are designed to be gravity fed, meaning the you allow the water pressure in the pond to gently move any sediment from the bottom of the pond to your filter system, rather then trying to scoop or pump it out, both of which tend to stir or blend up the muck and make it harder to remove from the pond water.
I disagree with Waterbug that bottom drains are "worthless" without TRPs, but I agree with him that you should do a little research on bottom drain systems before installing one.
Most bottom drain are plumbed to sieves or settlement chambers. Sieves are very effective at removing the bulk of the muck that gets sucked through bottom drains, but they are a little pricey, and not very friendly to little fish. Settlement chambers are more fish friendly and cheaper to make, but not quite as effective at removing the muck.
Tangential Pond Returns (TRPs) are return water lines strategically placed around the pond to create a water current in the pond that assists in moving debris and fish poop towards the bottom drain. They are usually something designed into larger, sophisticated koi pond designs.
A steeply sloped pond bottom and aerated bottom drains are a couple other things that assist in moving bottom debris towards the bottom drain.
I can post some pictures and video of my bottom drain system if you're interested at all.

 

[Waterbug]

My web page of removing leaves and such from a pond.

Worthless is a relative term. To some people if a BD cleans 10%, 20% or even 80% of a pond they consider it a great feature. To me, if I have to still pull out the vacuum, net, brush, or whatever to clean the other 90%, 80% or even 20% it's hardly any more effort to just clean 100% considering I still have to deal with the filter. So to me worthless. To others priceless.

Most half baked BD systems I see are pretty lame to me. Crap just sits in some tank and rots instead of rotting in the pond. Not really any difference. That is the other issue. Some people consider a BD a success if they don't see stuff. Other people want the BD to remove stuff before it breaks down into stuff too small to see. So goals also move the worthless-priceless bar.

Done right they're great.

For certain sloped bottoms have no effect on debris removal. Its a common myth. Debris must be pushed by water current. On well designed BD systems there is a low area around the drain opening, but that has to do with creating a baffle so debris stops being pushed by current. Like I said, complex.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Like I said Maggie, do a little research, decide for yourself. One thing I can tell you for sure, without a bottom drain you`ll be continually stuck scooping and sucking the muck out of your pond manually, or I guess you could just hire someone like waterbug to do it for you, he`s the expert after all.
You might want to pop over to http://www.koiphen.com/forums/ and ask whether bottom drains are worth installing, you`ll get some different opinions over there.

 

[Maggie71]

Thanks for the discussion, I learned a lot!

 

[Mmathis]

To Maggie:
I use a swimming pool "skimmer" net. I have 2: one from WALLY-WORLD and one from HOME DEPOT. Both have extendable handles, but I like the one from HD the best [blue handle]. The handle is longer and overall, it seems and feels more sturdy. But even so, I still physically get IN the pond at times and hand-scoop stuff out. The trick is to get as much stuff off the surface as possible, before it has a chance to sink. Unfortunately for the pond, we have too many trees.

I didn't install a skimmer and don't have a bottom drain. I do have a surface skimmer [Oase] that works well, though not as good as a REAL skimmer would. It gets the little stuff. I am just coming on my first year anniversary and first over-wintering. We "netted" the pond once the leaves started falling. I was IN the pond this past weekend, and even with the leaf-netting and the frequent scoopings with the skimmer net, there was still a lot of junk [mostly leaves, sticks & stems, acorns] on the bottom. There are some issues that I still have to work out....

From Maggie

 

[sissy]

Couldn't think what you call them besides that turtle mommy .I don't have a skimmer or bottom drain either

 

[Waterbug]

or I guess you could just hire someone like waterbug to do it for you, he`s the expert after all.

Without the that would seem petty. Classy.

You might want to pop over to http://www.koiphen.com/forums/ and ask whether bottom drains are worth installing, you`ll get some different opinions over there.

Yes. And they can also explain the difference between a proper BD system and a shortcut BD system. Or I guess you could just hire someone like mucky to do it for you, he's the expert on shortcut BD systems after all.

 

[gardengimp]

I clean the muck off the bottom .It has a long pole on it so I can extend it out .People use it on pools to take stuff off the top of the water .I buy the deeper net so I can also catch the fish with it too .

Ah, net on a handle, gotcha. I was trying to envision some net thing stretched across the bottom.

We just started on spring cleaning around here. This year we were smarter than last,and covered the pond with frost cloth before we blew the leaves and pollen off the roof. That helped a bunch with the pond clean up. Having the bird netting over the pond to protect the fish from the heron made it virtually impossible to keep up daily net skimming on the pond. Which meant way more junk on the bottom of the pond, and brown water. But no green water, maybe tannins and pollens prohibit pollen. Don't know which would be worse. My big regret is not having a real skimmer. This winters master plan includes adding a Savio Compact Skimmer.

Maggie, one of the first things you need to decide is what kind of pond do you want? Koi pond, goldfish pond, water garden, wildlife habitat? Then, think about things like what does clear water mean to you? How do you feel about having a lot of frogs and tadpoles? Do you want plants in and around your pond? How important is it to you to protect your fish from invaders? How much water noise do you want to hear? How much daily, weekly, quarterly cleaning to you want to do? Do you mind getting wet? And occasionally getting into the pond.

 

[HTH]

I am sure the guys at Koi Pen have a great BD setup for Koi but it sounds a bit like a whirlpool. Maggie wants goldfish, and plants, most everyone wants water lilies. The lilies and many types of goldfish do not like current.

It seems to me this engine is on the wrong track.

 

[Waterbug]

Completely the wrong track. OP long ago said BD didn't look reasonable for thier application.

Welcome to web forums. We kick dead horses around until there's no more horse to kick. Then we kick the maggots around a few more times until no one can even remember what we were talking about. It's not about learning or helping...it's about defending opinion until no one can stand the putrid stench. Then we start another thread and repeat the process. Apparently it's great fun because we sure do it a lot.

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello

Excuse me but
this Child bickering is not helping anyone specifically Maggie who is trying to learn the good and bads of pond design and construction.
I am pretty sure she do's not want to learn how to bicker about a bottom drain. :0000000057:

Ruben