Devastated, lost most of my pond goldfish

[Meyer Jordan]

Did you ever come across an area, Maria, where surface runoff could be getting into your pond?

I am thinking the same as you Mitch. I can't get it out of my head that this was some form of chemical intrusion. All of the signs are there.

 

[Dave 54]

Maria as a matter of interest did you do an autopsy on the fishes gills and if so where they damaged or discoloured in anyway please ?
It's something we always do after weve had a death it can tell you alot out what has been ging on these last few days or more.

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

I am thinking the same as you Mitch. I can't get it out of my head that this was some form of chemical intrusion. All of the signs are there.

Woudnt a chemical intrusion leave tell tale residual signs like staining of the water" though Mitch" you know like the rainbow style effects you get with fuel or staining to the sides of the stock tank where the flow entrerd the pond in the first instant ?.
I would have thought, that any form of chemical intrusion would taken all her fish at once dont you think ?
Superverm is the only organophosphate thats leathal to goldfish that I can name ?

Dave

 

[MitchM]

Without a complete water quality test Dave, all we can do is guess.
It makes sense to me that smaller fish would succumb to a chemical pollutant before larger fish.
If any runoff came from landscaping materials, (dyes, herbicides, fertilizers, insecticides, ect) then it's hard to say what exactly could have caused the deaths.

Hopefully Maria finds a spot where surface runoff had entered her pond and fixes it.
I think we've all given it our best shot at trying to figure this out, though.

.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Woudnt a chemical intrusion leave tell tale residual signs like staining of the water" though Mitch" you know like the rainbow style effects you get with fuel or staining to the sides of the stock tank where the flow entrerd the pond in the first instant ?.
I would have thought, that any form of chemical intrusion would taken all her fish at once dont you think ?
Superverm is the only organophosphate thats leathal to goldfish that I can name ?

Dave

In answer to the first question, not all toxic chemicals have an 'oily' base, i.e. DDT, Round-up, etc.
Second question, not necessarily. It depends on level of exposure and exposure duration. The Sarin gas attack in Japan killed many almost instantly, others survived for a period after exposure and others, at the fringe of exposure, recovered.

There are many organophosphates and carbanates on the market that are extremely toxic to many animals including fish. Just a partial list includes-
Nuvan, dichlorvos, chloropyrifos, Dimethoate, triazophos, profenofos, carbofuran and carbaryl, etc.
Or more can be read here: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-27249--,00.html

 

[Dave 54]

Interesting ta Meyer saved off my friend


Dave

 

[Mmathis]

It makes sense to me that smaller fish would succumb to a chemical pollutant before larger fish.

.

Please explain. I've read that with O2 deprivation, while not the same thing, the larger fish are the most susceptible. Wouldn't it be the same?

 

[MitchM]

Please explain. I've read that with O2 deprivation, while not the same thing, the larger fish are the most susceptible. Wouldn't it be the same?

Same idea as a canary in a coal mine, TM.
Smaller animal, higher metabolism, exposed to the same concentration of poison.
The canary will succumb to poisonous gases before humans.
Larger, slower moving fish have lower metabolism, so it will take longer for the ingested poison to reach lethal levels.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Please explain. I've read that with O2 deprivation, while not the same thing, the larger fish are the most susceptible. Wouldn't it be the same?

Same idea as a canary in a coal mine, TM.
Smaller animal, higher metabolism, exposed to the same concentration of poison.
The canary will succumb to poisonous gases before humans.
Larger, slower moving fish have lower metabolism, so it will take longer for the ingested poison to reach lethal levels.

If I may.
We are talking Apples and Oranges. On one hand we are describing depriving an organism of an essential element (Oxygen) required to sustain survival. On the other hand we are describing the major disruption of physiological processes by the external introduction of a toxic substance.

 

[MitchM]

Right.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Mmathis]

If I may.
We are talking Apples and Oranges. On one hand we are describing depriving an organism of an essential element (Oxygen) required to sustain survival. On the other hand we are describing the major disruption of physiological processes by the external introduction of a toxic substance.

And to @MitchM But does it still hold true that low O2 will hit the larger fish first? And toxins will hit the smaller fish first?
___________________________
And on another, related note, if your O2 levels are good, all of your water parameters are good and consistently so, and [as far as you know] there are no outside toxins getting into the water, is it possible that there's something "toxic" being created in the pond that could hurt the fish? No, that doesn't really make sense because I would think anything like that would also affect the water parameters....... Hmmmmm.......

OK, then is there any way you could TEST for this? No, that goes back to water parameters......

Darn! I'm frustrated because I've been having a similar problem as @bettasngoldfish, though not as devastating. Just finding the occas. dead fish with no evidence of illness or injury; nothing showing up on microscopic exam [that I can find]. At first this was happening around the time we'd have some really bad thunderstorms so was suspecting lightening. But it's still happening -- a fish here, a fish there. Small to med-sized fish. My trapdoor snail population is thriving. I'm finding viable snails of all sizes, so know they have to be different generations. And my tadpoles are thriving. I tend to see them as a barometer. So what can be going on if nothing is going on??

 

[bettasngoldfish]

After looking around the pond there is only one area that *might* allow run off to enter the pond (and it happens to be on my neighbors side) I have a small preform tub with water fall that drops into the pond. I can't see under it at the moment because of all the rocks around it. When I get the pond emptied I am also planning to pick up the preform and check the pond edging underneath it. Otherwise I don't see anywhere else water could flow into the pond. Unless of course someone purposely dumped something in the pond. I know I didn't add any chemicals myself and neither did my husband.

 

[Mmathis]

@bettasngoldfish See, that's what confuses me, as well. There just isn't any way that anything is going into the pond unless it's the "mosquito truck," but it's been so dry here lately that they haven't sprayed in quite a while. We do have a pest control service that sprays every 3 months, but our guy knows to stay away from the pond and the turtle habitat. I've watched him and he goes around the house foundation and the spray is more of a squirt than a spray -- hardly any way for it to aerosolize and drift toward the pond.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

And to @MitchM But does it still hold true that low O2 will hit the larger fish first? And toxins will hit the smaller fish first?
___________________________
And on another, related note, if your O2 levels are good, all of your water parameters are good and consistently so, and [as far as you know] there are no outside toxins getting into the water, is it possible that there's something "toxic" being created in the pond that could hurt the fish? No, that doesn't really make sense because I would think anything like that would also affect the water parameters....... Hmmmmm.......

OK, then is there any way you could TEST for this? No, that goes back to water parameters......

Darn! I'm frustrated because I've been having a similar problem as @bettasngoldfish, though not as devastating. Just finding the occas. dead fish with no evidence of illness or injury; nothing showing up on microscopic exam [that I can find]. At first this was happening around the time we'd have some really bad thunderstorms so was suspecting lightening. But it's still happening -- a fish here, a fish there. Small to med-sized fish. My trapdoor snail population is thriving. I'm finding viable snails of all sizes, so know they have to be different generations. And my tadpoles are thriving. I tend to see them as a barometer. So what can be going on if nothing is going on??

It is easy to forget that fish, like all other animals, are subject to die at any age from what are usually described as 'natural causes'. It all goes back to the tenet "survival of the fittest". Inherited genetic weaknesses and predisposition to succumb to certain illnesses is well documented. Although the fatality rate may not be as high in humans because we have the ability to treat ourselves, these genetic weaknesses are still there as evidenced by the incident of illness in humans.
Just because we provide our finned friends with a controlled environment, the positive and negative aspects of which can be debated, does not automatically endow them with a greater protection from the natural order of things. If they are genetically weak they are subject to a greater danger from their environment, a danger that may come in different forms depending on the particular genetic weakness(s).
The occasional death of a fish maybe should trigger an alert to be more observant but should not be a cause for alarm because it may be..... the natural order of things.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

@bettasngoldfish See, that's what confuses me, as well. There just isn't any way that anything is going into the pond unless it's the "mosquito truck," but it's been so dry here lately that they haven't sprayed in quite a while. We do have a pest control service that sprays every 3 months, but our guy knows to stay away from the pond and the turtle habitat. I've watched him and he goes around the house foundation and the spray is more of a squirt than a spray -- hardly any way for it to aerosolize and drift toward the pond.

We have trucks that go around spraying for mosquito here too. Living by the lake the skeeters can get bad. But I doubt that it has anything to do with the deaths of my fish. They spray every summer and it hasn't caused any trouble before.

Besides I have fish in my stock tank and they are fine. Do you keep any fish in your stock tanks Maggie? If so, have they been okay?