Devastated, lost most of my pond goldfish

[Dave 54]

Meyer all I'm trying to do is to get to the bottom of Maria's die off .
Has anyone ever looked into major fish kills in ornamental ponds due to turn over...no I dont think so ?
Maria is quite an accomplished fish keeper who is more than willing to learn shes now using anethetics , shes using a microscope and has written her first article, however she is struggling to understand that if she did nothing wrong then why on earth did all her fish die?.
Thunderstorms create low barametric pressure combined with low 02 levels can cause turn over thus her fish die.
I can see nothing wrong with this model as it all fits .
So if it wasnt turn over leading to a major loss of life in her pond then what else was it ?
@MitchM any ideas?

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

Just thought i'd mention that as some of us are about to be hit by thunderstorms with heavy rain and possible lightening & that it maybe worth keeping a close eye on your ponds parameters & Oxygen levels.
I know 1 or 2 koi keepers have asked lately about "when do i turn the air on or off in my pond?" As most of us know you keep it on 24/7 and you'll need to keep an eye on it, as is there enough air going into the pond whilst we have thunderstorms, especially if you are overstocked?

I came up with this on the koi magazines website so my next question would be was Maria overstocked which I dont think she was but it ties in with what we are saying

Dave

 

[MitchM]

I don't have an answer either, Dave.
Personally, I suspect that it is a matter of surface runoff or too frequent large water changes.
If we knew what color the gills of the deceased fish were, it could possibly help identify the cause.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Thunderstorms create low barametric pressure combined with low 02 levels can cause turn over thus her fish die.

Where on earth did you get this information?
First of all, only intense tropical cyclones and perhaps tornadoes have a low enough central pressure to initiate a high volume Oxygen loss from a body of water.
Secondly, thunderstorms are certainly formed by rising air, but as the air rises surrounding Oxygen rich air is drawn in to replace it.
I have already ceded that I do not know what caused Maria's fish loss, but only eliminated what could have been a cause....Oxygen depletion by natural means.
There are several hydrocarbon based products on the market that can bind the Oxygen present in the water column, but sadly they quickly dissipate rendering them undetectable...only the results of their damage are left in evidence.

 

[Dave 54]

Where on earth did you get this information?
First of all, only intense tropical cyclones and perhaps tornadoes have a low enough central pressure to initiate a high volume Oxygen loss from a body of water.
Secondly, thunderstorms are certainly formed by rising air, but as the air rises surrounding Oxygen rich air is drawn in to replace it.
I have already ceded that I do not know what caused Maria's fish loss, but only eliminated what could have been a cause....Oxygen depletion by natural means.
There are several hydrocarbon based products on the market that can bind the Oxygen present in the water column, but sadly they quickly dissipate rendering them undetectable...only the results of their damage are left in evidence.

Funny how a totally differing website should come up with the same thing as I did they say the same thing as I did Meyer by the way the chap named Tommy Two ponds is a former BKKS health official now fish consultant I've no reason to doubt him nor your good self

http://www.koimag.co.uk/forum/search.php

http://www.koimag.co.uk/forum/post518374.html#p518374

Dave

 

[Mmathis]

My pond is 5 feet deep and I have temperature sensors at 2 foot and 5 foot depths.
With water circulation, there is no temperature difference.

I have a similar set up, with my 2 sensors at ~2' and 3-1/2' to 4'. Since I've been monitoring it, in heat & cold, over the past 3 years, I've never had a difference of more than 1/2 a degree (and that could be just the difference in probes).

@MitchM Just curious, but what thermometers/probes/sensors do you use? Are they digital?

 

[MitchM]

TM, I use a Davis weather station with their sensors for measuring ground temperature.
They are reliable and accurate to +/- 0.5C or 1F. They also come with 15 foot cables.
I've tried Lacrosse and others, but they don't last through a winter here.

I didn't run any water circulation last winter and I did record a maximum difference of 1C between the 2 depths. Not a lot.

 

[cas]

My pond is 5 feet deep and I have temperature sensors at 2 foot and 5 foot depths.
With water circulation, there is no temperature difference.

Good to know. What type of water circulation do you have going in the summer?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I've no reason to doubt him nor your good self

What you are doubting is not me, but the science based facts that have been presented, in favor of an article that has obviously been lifted and re-written to apply to garden ponds.
Contact any professional Linmologist and they will confirm every fact that I have cited.
Whether or not you accept the scientific references provided or no is your option, but I will always defer to the word of scientific professionals over anecdotal and baseless pronouncements of laymen.
Once more......Ponds of >8 feet in depth rarely stratify. When they do, it is always in the Summer months and only for a few hours. Thunderstorms have no affect on the Oxygen content of non-stratified ponds.

 

[MitchM]

Good to know. What type of water circulation do you have going in the summer?

I have about 2500 gph into a surface skimmer on one end of the pond and out through a single hose outlet on the other end of the pond.
I would like to have more gph, but I'm not having any water quality issues, so adding more circulation is a low priority for me.
This winter I'm going to try a 600 gph pump circulating water within the pond itself in order to minimize total ice cover time.

 

[haver79]

Maria so sorry to hear about your fish lost. Frustrating when you don't know the cause. Hoping your survivors are doing well.

 

[Mmathis]

@bettasngoldfish I don't recall if I saw it mentioned, but were you able to examine any of he fish enough to look for tell tale signs of injury, etc.?

 

[Dave 54]

What you are doubting is not me, but the science based facts that have been presented, in favor of an article that has obviously been lifted and re-written to apply to garden ponds.
Contact any professional Linmologist and they will confirm every fact that I have cited.
Whether or not you accept the scientific references provided or no is your option, but I will always defer to the word of scientific professionals over anecdotal and baseless pronouncements of laymen.
Once more......Ponds of >8 feet in depth rarely stratify. When they do, it is always in the Summer months and only for a few hours. Thunderstorms have no affect on the Oxygen content of non-stratified ponds.

What on earth are you on about Meyer Tommy Two ponds is a respected koi professional and the Koi Magazines website has nothing to do with garden ponds I mearely stated its amazing that there are two sites talking about the same thing.
One thing I learned along time ago Meyer that scientists are quite ofen wrong in what they surmise look at DDT "oh thats safe to use", look at many of the things science says is good for us and it turns round and bites us on the ass my friend, one has to put two and two togther to get to four .
You agreed in part with what I said then lost it when I meantion Barameteric pressure dropping which it does around bad thunderstorms you go off about cyclones and the like , I've kept enough notes for the Met boys in the RN to know that so it isnt a stretch of the imagination to put them togther, plus add to that the size of storms in the US are much larger than that of the UK
However as I previously stated Meyer I'm not out to prove the science , I'm out to give Maria answers which is what she wants right about now.
So forget the science there has to be some tipping of the pond to kill that many fish in one go which points to oxygen depleted water which can only come from the bottom of a pond thus the pond has tipped causing Total Oxygen Depletetion of her pond thats not hard to take onboard is it ?.


Dave

 

[Dave 54]

You want an expert I got you one , his name is Syd Mitchell , one of the top people in the BKKS experts on water its his life as hes been working with it for most of his career.
He is also a consultant from K.O.I. recently back from the US after giving a talk at a K.O.I. seminar.I emailed him re Marias problem.
Now going off the fact we didnt have the temperature Kh readings etc of Marias pond at that time here are his thoughts's

Hi Dave,


For a proper evaluation in cases like this I would need much more information such as pond parameters before and after the event if possible. Certainly details of stocking rate, aeration and pond temperature would be essential pieces of information.


In the absence of those, the only causes that spring to mind in hot thundery weather are a sudden depletion of oxygen or a pH crash caused by a low KH and an excess of CO2.


Best regards
Syd

He also goes under the internet name of Manky Sanke , I really thing you'll like Syd if you got together Meyer because hes all about everything there is to do with water, pond systems flow rates, Anoxuic filtration you name it

Dave

 

[MitchM]

...
Now going off the fact we didnt have the temperature Kh readings etc of Marias pond at that time here are his thoughts's

...

Dave, Maria included that information in her first post.

.