COLOR TRANSFORMATION IN SHUBUNKINS & GOLDFISH

[Mmathis]

Keeping an eye on another baby from last year. Earlier in the season it was a dull light orange color -- not pretty at all. But the last few days I've noticed that it's getting lighter in splotches, and sometimes almost looks translucent. Now the fun will come, trying to guess what the final product will be!

 

[Nepen]

This is very interesting discussion...I'm trying to figure why my shubunkin pattern changed too. I like it though as I like the black and the black dots actually are bigger and the orang/reds are smaller...I saw the blue hue on one shubunkin back too.

I'm hoping next year my fish will be old enough to produce some fry... Want to see how they turn out... If I have both male and female, that is.

 

[Dave 54]

Charles, there's a forum intended for goldfish breeders, called Site for Goldfish Keepers, where there is a lot of information about breeding, and plenty of arguments about genetics. There is a book by Joseph Smartt called Goldfish Varieties and Genetics that you can find online, and if you search a bit you can get a free download.

As for the prestige of goldfish vs koi, it probably has a lot to do with size and the resulting cost of keeping them. People can breed and grow show quality goldfish in tubs in their backyard. That is certainly not true of koi. It costs more to produce koi, so they are more expensive. Expense adds prestige and prestige raises prices. Big is considered desirable and koi get big.

Dave, I don't see any disagreement. The first record of selectively breeding red and white as well as red/orange goldfish was in the 13th century. Since information didn't move so fast back then, I assumed that such selective breeding had been going on for a while, and said about 1000 years ago. Goldfish had already been kept in ornamental ponds for centuries before that, but even emperors had only ponds of "gold and silver" goldfish, not multicolored ones.

I said "koi were first selectively bred in the 1800s", and you said "Koi keepers started selective breeding in 1870." That sounds the same to me.

Would you happen to know how large the gene pool is for Goldfish shakaho I know that in the koi world the acctual gene pool is quite small and the purer the koi the more they suffer with their Immune system's.
Attempt's have been made to try to rectify this by going back to the koi's roots and breed with a magio (eating carp)but sadly the colours produced by this union are rather dull as such they arent comercially saleble at this present time.
Personally I would go to Newzealand where koi are concidered pest to look for a stronger gene as the koi there are feral.
The are trashing the New Zealand native species thus the pest status , they have shooting parties to see who can bag the most to try and rid theirselves of them , so far it isnt working.
"The Butterfly koi may well be the way forwards a union between koi and Indoneasian River Carp", sadly we take forever to catch up in the UK and the BKKS wont recognse them.
I'm also wondering about the mixing of Israeli koi with Japanese or Britsh koi with Japanese perhaps this may well be the wy forwards for them but I doubt if they have thought of it yet.Many thanx for the information about goldfish , this answers alott of questions .
Is it true that if you put a number of male and female Fancies together in a pond and just let them get on wih life, that within seven generations they would be breeding true again i;e back to normal goldfish.
Perhaps you could also answer this question for us as well......
Regarding Koi Herpes Virus and the Goldfish Herpes Virus which came first do the goldfish experts have the answer to that ?.
Thinking of that I also wonder if the Koi in the Only two States that allow them in Australia "no Imports ",have possibly the only koi in the world that dont have the koi herpes virus.......

rgrds

Dave

 

[Nick Knack]

Just to add my own 2 yr experience of an indoor tank with my comet shubunkins. Starting with a male with a body mostly white with light grey-blue patches, some black freckles and a light orange head, and a female similar but far more and darker orange patches I have had 4 successive spawnings. The first after heavy natural attrition rate eventually resulted in 2 offspring, one similar to the female and one completely white. The second gave 1 offspring mostly white with 5% black patches and pinhead freckles. The third gave 3 dark silvery green ones resembling green tench but all are beginning to get much lighter and particularly the undersides. The fourth gave 2 calico with an even mix of colours, and 2 mostly white with light grey patches. The eyes of the offspring are a mixture of completely black or black with silver surround, and most offspring have one of each. I guess the random mixture is a result of the more complex genetics of these shubunkins. I feed them Tetra flakes and they eat the plants as well.

 

[j.w]

@Nick Knack

 

[Bluerooster]

I have a goldfish that started out looking like a plain old minnow baitfish. Then turned yellow and black, and is now just like any other goldfish. You can see a pic here: https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/what-is-this.32696/#post-514829

 

[Lisak1]

Now that we have an underwater camera (HAVE I MENTIONED GET A CMAERA?!?), watching the color changes is even more fun! We have two fish that are completely silver. Clearly goldfish but nothing gold about them. It will be interesting to see if they change colors. Without the camera we didn't even know they were there - they're pretty much invisible to the naked eye looking down into the pond.

 

[CometKeith]

Just to add my own 2 yr experience of an indoor tank with my comet shubunkins. Starting with a male with a body mostly white with light grey-blue patches, some black freckles and a light orange head, and a female similar but far more and darker orange patches I have had 4 successive spawnings. The first after heavy natural attrition rate eventually resulted in 2 offspring, one similar to the female and one completely white. The second gave 1 offspring mostly white with 5% black patches and pinhead freckles. The third gave 3 dark silvery green ones resembling green tench but all are beginning to get much lighter and particularly the undersides. The fourth gave 2 calico with an even mix of colours, and 2 mostly white with light grey patches. The eyes of the offspring are a mixture of completely black or black with silver surround, and most offspring have one of each. I guess the random mixture is a result of the more complex genetics of these shubunkins. I feed them Tetra flakes and they eat the plants as well.

Hi Nick Knack. Welcome to the forum. I’m sure you realize this thread was started 10 years ago. Typically it’s best to start a new thread when you want to discuss a topic even if it was discussed previously. Good luck on the forum!

 

[bbeattie]

Not sure where to start posting about my shubunkin pond. I can't find a discussion about breeding shubunkins and the tendency for some young ones to be be born a pure brown colour. My guess is this is a reversion to the plain volour they originated from. Also do you think these browns would be sterile?

Thanks!

 

[j.w]

and welcome @bbeattie
I know Shubbies can change color but not sure all will get rid of the pure brown. I don't think they would be sterile tho.

 

[bbeattie]

I'm talking about ones that are born brown and never change from pure brown. I have several like this.

 

[Mmathis]

@bbeattie Hello and welcome! The only reason I can think of for a Shubunkin to be sterile…is if it was the offspring of a goldfish and a koi — a hybrid. Shubunkin are goldfish, so they can breed with other goldfish, and unless they continue to be bred for certain characteristics, they will eventually revert to a more bland color.

 

[GBBUDD]

Charles, there's a forum intended for goldfish breeders, called Site for Goldfish Keepers, where there is a lot of information about breeding, and plenty of arguments about genetics. There is a book by Joseph Smartt called Goldfish Varieties and Genetics that you can find online, and if you search a bit you can get a free download.

As for the prestige of goldfish vs koi, it probably has a lot to do with size and the resulting cost of keeping them. People can breed and grow show quality goldfish in tubs in their backyard. That is certainly not true of koi. It costs more to produce koi, so they are more expensive. Expense adds prestige and prestige raises prices. Big is considered desirable and koi get big.

Dave, I don't see any disagreement. The first record of selectively breeding red and white as well as red/orange goldfish was in the 13th century. Since information didn't move so fast back then, I assumed that such selective breeding had been going on for a while, and said about 1000 years ago. Goldfish had already been kept in ornamental ponds for centuries before that, but even emperors had only ponds of "gold and silver" goldfish, not multicolored ones.

I said "koi were first selectively bred in the 1800s", and you said "Koi keepers started selective breeding in 1870." That sounds the same to me.

Oh I extremely doubt koi breeding only started in the 1800 's the Japanese have calligraphy of koi from a hell of a lot further back than only 1000 years ago. Now is what your talking about as a Comercialy breed fish and buisness even that I doubt. I think the popularity took off in the 1800's as our understanding grew , that could be a possibility.

 

[bbeattie]

@bbeattie Hello and welcome! The only reason I can think of for a Shubunkin to be sterile…is if it was the offspring of a goldfish and a koi — a hybrid. Shubunkin are goldfish, so they can breed with other goldfish, and unless they continue to be bred for certain characteristics, they will eventually revert to a more bland color.

Has nobody else seen pure brown shubunkins in their pond? Most of mine are the usual variety of colours of orange/black/blue/white. I've never seen a brown one chase a female as a male or being chased as a female...that's why I wonder if they're sterile?? I can't be the only one with pure brown shubunkins and I'm sure it's a genetic reversion to the colour they were developed from.

 

[Mmathis]

By definition:

Shubunkins are a hardy, single-tailed goldfish with nacreous scales and a pattern known as calico.[1] (Wikipedia).

They were bred to have these 3 colors ( calico): black, gold, and that pretty iridescent white (though some new ones are being bred with pretty variations on the “calico,” which is a softer bluish color). They are gorgeous fish…..but they are just a variety of goldfish.

They are not a separate BREED of fish. If they are brown, they are not going to exhibit the “calico” look, but instead will revert to the original muddy color, or may end up gold. I don’t know about the genetics, so don’t know what traits are dominant or resessive with Shubies. All goldfish can and will breed with other goldfish. Yes, when Shubies breed with other goldfish, they‘re offspring (down the generations) will eventually revert to the original color and body form.

A brown fish is not a “brown” Shubunkin. If the brown ones aren’t showing an interest in the other fish, they’re either not old enough to mate yet. Or, maybe you’ve got something that isn’t a goldfish.