Well, life and the weather got it the way: 90 degrees and 90% humidity doesn't go well with horsing 300 pounds of EPDM around, so liner-day is postponed. Working on plumbing design and construction in the meantime. Maybe next week for the liner ...
Bogging in New Jersey
- Thread starter bobchapman
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Head out a dawn, that is what I do. In the house by 10 am, that is all I can handle with this heat. We are hitting 100+ heat index, 90's actual. Wear gloves that stuff will burn your hands if the sun is out.
Finally a somewhat nicer day to struggle with liner.
I'm using underlayment because both my local supplier and Firestone rep recommended that. It's 6-oz material, a felt of sorts, I suppose it's a synthetic. It's pretty light to deal with, so easy to spread out in the pond:
This stuff does NOT cut well with a knife, so scissors it is. I first marked the line where the fabric met the wall, with a crayon (standard kid's wax crayon -- chalk doesn't work):
Since I had a bunch of this material left over, I pulled out the underlayment that I had cut to size. I then used the remaining pieces to make a second layer, though not as neatly done since it was in many pieces. Then I put the whole one back in on top:
I cutr out the BD hole in the underlayment.
Then, on to the liner!
I'm using underlayment because both my local supplier and Firestone rep recommended that. It's 6-oz material, a felt of sorts, I suppose it's a synthetic. It's pretty light to deal with, so easy to spread out in the pond:
This stuff does NOT cut well with a knife, so scissors it is. I first marked the line where the fabric met the wall, with a crayon (standard kid's wax crayon -- chalk doesn't work):
Since I had a bunch of this material left over, I pulled out the underlayment that I had cut to size. I then used the remaining pieces to make a second layer, though not as neatly done since it was in many pieces. Then I put the whole one back in on top:
I cutr out the BD hole in the underlayment.
Then, on to the liner!
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So here we go! with a little trepidation. I don;t mind so much screwing up on inexpensive things, but these liners are not cheap! And I've never done any of this before...
Here's the roll of liner on the manlift (a.k.a. "crane").
The liner comes on a roll, and this one is 20' wide x 50' long. It's on a real sturdy cardboard tube. I stuck a piece of black iron pipe that I had lying around through that tube, and then attached it to the crane. By reaching under the roll, and pulling upwards, I could rather easily rotate the liner and its tube on the pipe.
I clamped one end of the liner to the wall at the right end, unrolled some of the liner, maybe 4-5 feet, then swung the crane to the left. Rinse and repeat a number of times across the length of the pond.
The 20' width of the liner is fold 4 times, so the roll is 5' wide. With a little planning, I got the centerfold of the liner pretty well along the center line of the pond.
The most nervous-making of the effort for me was to cut the liner off at the end. This roll of material is to cover both this pond and the bog, so I measured several times and whacked it off.
Then I covered the walls of the pond (rough concrete block, with various tarps and stuff to protect the liner as I wiggled it into position:
Then I was able to pull the liner half to one side and half to the other side, and up over the pond walls.
Here's the roll of liner on the manlift (a.k.a. "crane").
The liner comes on a roll, and this one is 20' wide x 50' long. It's on a real sturdy cardboard tube. I stuck a piece of black iron pipe that I had lying around through that tube, and then attached it to the crane. By reaching under the roll, and pulling upwards, I could rather easily rotate the liner and its tube on the pipe.
I clamped one end of the liner to the wall at the right end, unrolled some of the liner, maybe 4-5 feet, then swung the crane to the left. Rinse and repeat a number of times across the length of the pond.
The 20' width of the liner is fold 4 times, so the roll is 5' wide. With a little planning, I got the centerfold of the liner pretty well along the center line of the pond.
The most nervous-making of the effort for me was to cut the liner off at the end. This roll of material is to cover both this pond and the bog, so I measured several times and whacked it off.
Then I covered the walls of the pond (rough concrete block, with various tarps and stuff to protect the liner as I wiggled it into position:
Then I was able to pull the liner half to one side and half to the other side, and up over the pond walls.
After some head-scratching, I was able to maneuver the liner (by myself) so that the bottom is pretty flat and wrinkle-free. Since it is a kidney-shape pond, there have to be "darts" or folds on the bottom to accommodate the convex section of wall.
So far I haven't begun to cut any part of the liner (except for the length). I think that the next step is to trim off the liner to the outside of the pond wall. It's just too hard to begin working the folds on the walls with a whole bunch of extra material. Does that seem reasonable? Addy??? or anyone ???
I'm envisioning making the initial folds up the wall and then anchoring the liner on the top with temporary stone blocks. Also cutting in the bottom drain and skimmer. Does anyone have a different sequence to suggest? (I know that some don't use the BDin this sort of pond, but I can shut it off if it turns out that I don't want/need it.)
This turned out to be significantly easier than I had been worrying it would be: I had been putting it off for that reason, in part. Although the material is heavy, it's still reasonably manageable, even for one person, and I'm no youngster!
So far I haven't begun to cut any part of the liner (except for the length). I think that the next step is to trim off the liner to the outside of the pond wall. It's just too hard to begin working the folds on the walls with a whole bunch of extra material. Does that seem reasonable? Addy??? or anyone ???
I'm envisioning making the initial folds up the wall and then anchoring the liner on the top with temporary stone blocks. Also cutting in the bottom drain and skimmer. Does anyone have a different sequence to suggest? (I know that some don't use the BDin this sort of pond, but I can shut it off if it turns out that I don't want/need it.)
This turned out to be significantly easier than I had been worrying it would be: I had been putting it off for that reason, in part. Although the material is heavy, it's still reasonably manageable, even for one person, and I'm no youngster!
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FANTASTIC! That is one sweet job you did.
If you want to cut the liner OUTSIDE of the pond make sure you leave enough for any settling etc. I did cut one edge short a real pita to fix after the fact. Anchor it well that stuff can have a mind of its own. Try to keep the folds as small as possible, a bunch of small ones is better than one huge that could potentially trap fish, debris etc.
As far as folds etc, over time you won't even notice them they blend. When I was filling the pond I spent a lot of time in the pond pushing the folds with my feet hands as it filled.
If you want to cut the liner OUTSIDE of the pond make sure you leave enough for any settling etc. I did cut one edge short a real pita to fix after the fact. Anchor it well that stuff can have a mind of its own. Try to keep the folds as small as possible, a bunch of small ones is better than one huge that could potentially trap fish, debris etc.
As far as folds etc, over time you won't even notice them they blend. When I was filling the pond I spent a lot of time in the pond pushing the folds with my feet hands as it filled.
Thanks for the encouragement, Addy. The liner really went in much easier than I had feared!
Bob
Today, after running a bunch of errands to get more parts, I worked on the folds on the bottom of the pond. I know that they will not be visible after the pond is in operation for a while. However, this is a river-flow design, meaning that the water comes in at one end of the kidney-shaped pond and is drawn out at the other end. So it's proper operation depends on a relatively smooth flow along the bottom. I figured that the standing ridges of the folds were going to get in the way of that.
So, reducing the folds. I got some 3" seam tape, made I assume for joining pieces of EPDM together. This material comes in a roll 3" wide by 25' long, and costs the princely sum of $60! I have never seen anything as sticky and rubbery as this stuff: once you touch it, you own it --- there's no getting it off your hands, and the piece that you touched is trash by the time you get disengaged. It comes with release paper between the wraps of the roll.
The 3" width was about twice what I needed so I slit the roll down the middle for a little less than a full wrap of the roll. The only sane way to apply this stuff is to then partially pull the release tape from one half of that width, and roll the whole roll along the fold so that the revealed half bonds to the liner.
Keep doing this until you have enough of the seam tape in place. You can see that I used short pieces butted up one to the next. When you run out towards the narrow end of the dart (fold), you have to stop because there won't be enough of the folded liner to be folded onto the seam tape.
Then fold the fold onto the seam tape, and roll with a wallpaper seam roller.
Covering this glued fold with the cover tape is much simpler: pull off some of the release tape and roll the revealed tape onto the seam; then pull the release paper and roll a bit at a time until you have the seam covered.
It makes a pretty clean installation.
Next was to cut in the bottom drain (BD). I pulled back the liner to get at the drain body that was already attached to the drain pipe that will lead to a pump. I cleaned out the holes in the drain body where the holddown screws will go --- they had gotten full of sand. But a 5/32" drill bit fit perfectly in those holes: by turning the drill bit by hand, all the sand was carried up and out of those screw holes.
The I pulled the liner back into position and cut the liner where the center drain hole of the BD is. The next step is to find out where those screw holes are under the liner! but you can feel the holes through the liner pretty easily, and stick a nail through the liner and into a couple of the holes so that you can get an idea as to how the top part of the BD will line up. Then I put some plumber's acrylic caulk between the drain body and the liner, and between the liner and the top part of the BD, and ran the screws in. You don;t need to pre-drill for the screws; they just go easily right through the liner.
Then hopping into the pump pit, I installed a 3" double-union valve on the BD drain line. Wow, those valves are big and awkward to deal with. But I got it installed. That was important because it's supposed to rain tonight, which would start to fill the pond, and I didn't want to lose all that water.
Maybe TPRs cut in tomorrow. PROGRESS!
So, reducing the folds. I got some 3" seam tape, made I assume for joining pieces of EPDM together. This material comes in a roll 3" wide by 25' long, and costs the princely sum of $60! I have never seen anything as sticky and rubbery as this stuff: once you touch it, you own it --- there's no getting it off your hands, and the piece that you touched is trash by the time you get disengaged. It comes with release paper between the wraps of the roll.
The 3" width was about twice what I needed so I slit the roll down the middle for a little less than a full wrap of the roll. The only sane way to apply this stuff is to then partially pull the release tape from one half of that width, and roll the whole roll along the fold so that the revealed half bonds to the liner.
Keep doing this until you have enough of the seam tape in place. You can see that I used short pieces butted up one to the next. When you run out towards the narrow end of the dart (fold), you have to stop because there won't be enough of the folded liner to be folded onto the seam tape.
Then fold the fold onto the seam tape, and roll with a wallpaper seam roller.
Covering this glued fold with the cover tape is much simpler: pull off some of the release tape and roll the revealed tape onto the seam; then pull the release paper and roll a bit at a time until you have the seam covered.
It makes a pretty clean installation.
Next was to cut in the bottom drain (BD). I pulled back the liner to get at the drain body that was already attached to the drain pipe that will lead to a pump. I cleaned out the holes in the drain body where the holddown screws will go --- they had gotten full of sand. But a 5/32" drill bit fit perfectly in those holes: by turning the drill bit by hand, all the sand was carried up and out of those screw holes.
The I pulled the liner back into position and cut the liner where the center drain hole of the BD is. The next step is to find out where those screw holes are under the liner! but you can feel the holes through the liner pretty easily, and stick a nail through the liner and into a couple of the holes so that you can get an idea as to how the top part of the BD will line up. Then I put some plumber's acrylic caulk between the drain body and the liner, and between the liner and the top part of the BD, and ran the screws in. You don;t need to pre-drill for the screws; they just go easily right through the liner.
Then hopping into the pump pit, I installed a 3" double-union valve on the BD drain line. Wow, those valves are big and awkward to deal with. But I got it installed. That was important because it's supposed to rain tonight, which would start to fill the pond, and I didn't want to lose all that water.
Maybe TPRs cut in tomorrow. PROGRESS!
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If I ever build another pond, doubtful, I will fly you in to do it! Wonderful job!
I had the tape I was thinking of gluing my folds down but decided nah.............. for my pond I have it as a walk out, so there is a slope heading down into the deep end, all the folds (three) point down towards bottom. They have not caused me a issue. I had more wall folds then bottom folds.
I had the tape I was thinking of gluing my folds down but decided nah.............. for my pond I have it as a walk out, so there is a slope heading down into the deep end, all the folds (three) point down towards bottom. They have not caused me a issue. I had more wall folds then bottom folds.
Oh Yeah, I will have many wall folds! Planning to start on that aspect of it today, along with getting TPRs and Skimmer cut in.
Thanks for the compliments!
Bob
Thanks for the compliments!
Bob
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Here is a shot of my side folds, around four years in
I got the TPRs and the skimmer cut in yesterday, and preliminary folding of the liner on the walls. More work to do as the pond gets filled with water, I'm sure. Also ordered the pumps, and have been working on the final design of the plumbing for the pumps: I think that I have that in -hand now.
Tomorrow we are going to look at rocks for the top of the walls: a mix of flat "slates" or bluestone, and, I hope, some large flat rocks for part of it. I want to get the large ones placed while I have the crane in place.
I'm getting close to filling the bog with gravel. Questions:
- how important is it to wash the sand out of the gravel? and how's the best way to do that with 3 cubic yards of gravel?
- what type of stone should I be using: rounded stone, called pea gravel here, or sharp stones, called crusher run or crushed stone here?
Thanks
Bob
Tomorrow we are going to look at rocks for the top of the walls: a mix of flat "slates" or bluestone, and, I hope, some large flat rocks for part of it. I want to get the large ones placed while I have the crane in place.
I'm getting close to filling the bog with gravel. Questions:
- how important is it to wash the sand out of the gravel? and how's the best way to do that with 3 cubic yards of gravel?
- what type of stone should I be using: rounded stone, called pea gravel here, or sharp stones, called crusher run or crushed stone here?
Thanks
Bob
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I used pea gravel 38000 lbs. We started to wash quit after the first few wheelbarrows. The dirt dust settled and got removed via the bog.
You could just put it in, have a low side, run the dirty water out as you fill and start up the pump.
You need small size for surface area.
You could just put it in, have a low side, run the dirty water out as you fill and start up the pump.
You need small size for surface area.
Yeah, I'm figuring 6-8000 pounds. It's just a lot of water to dispose of. My neighbors would not be happy recipients of my outflow! Maybe I just forget about this and dump in whatever the gravel is; let the small stuff settle to the bottom eventually.
Or, maybe a large garbage can to catch the runoff and a utility pump in that can to provide water flow --- recirculate the water until it's really dirty. Would save a big mess in the yard. Run the gravel down a screen, spraying it, and into the bog.
Or, maybe a large garbage can to catch the runoff and a utility pump in that can to provide water flow --- recirculate the water until it's really dirty. Would save a big mess in the yard. Run the gravel down a screen, spraying it, and into the bog.
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Lol we tried different methods. We are on a well, it was a dry summer decided we did not want to run our well dry.
And it was hot miserable back breaking work so figured forget it. I ended up scooping it up in my tractor bucket and drove it in. We put down a tarp to try and protect the liner from the tractor.
And it was hot miserable back breaking work so figured forget it. I ended up scooping it up in my tractor bucket and drove it in. We put down a tarp to try and protect the liner from the tractor.