A LITTLE INFO ON KOI / GOLDFISH HYBRIDS

[Fishylove]

Btw cape, while I was looking at the fish yesterday, I did see some (actually several) of some fish that looked quite funny. We decided they looked like Frankinstein Fish! Lol. Like some one took two different fish, cut them in half and sewed the two different halves together! Seriously, there was a straight line, separating the two, like someone had chopped the color off leaving the other half a drab/ flat silver gray. Strange looking.

 

[capewind]

Maybe you can get some pics of them, so we can all follow what they do?

In about the last week or so, we have collected 31 more babies (all tiny guys but one at 1.5"), but they all look like comets and shubunkins, except for 4, who are just too small for me to make out (can still see through half their bodies). I doubt anything of interest, likely more comets or shubunkins...

 

[Dave 54]

Thats OK Tancho with black in it {( down the back and flanks is known as a Doitsu Tancho Sanke) , see what I mean it gets complicated lol

rgrds

Dave

 

[Fishylove]

Ok cool! thanks Dave! What scales he does have are ogon/ shimmer like

 

[Dave 54]

I've posted these charts of differing koi classes one taken from one of my books in the hope it will help you out when buying koi in the future.
The other a more up to date chart from my friends on the South African website that I visit from time to time .
If you buy the book that I took the second chart from you'll have a gem of a book ( I have two, one for use the other for the pristeen condition its in .
The books name is "Live Jewels", General Survey of Fancy Carp by Masayuli Amano its a lovely book to own old fashioned yes but with a wealth of koi knowledge
The first chart is a more modern chart than the second and you should be able to see the changes I;ve also added a shot of our Tancho Sanke for you to compare sorry about the Quality
I'm abit confused by the Ogon shimmer like as an Ogon is a single coloured koi we have an Orange Ogon also known as a yamabuki Ogon after the Breeder.
The shimmer you could be Gin Rin or diamond scaled koi but I've never seen that in a doitsu so you may have a Gin Rin Tancho Sanke could you perhaps post a photo please Fishylove

rgrds

Dave

 

[Fishylove]

Sure ill see if I have one of him, if not ill try and get one. Since they are back in there pond, they are more friendly so maybe lol
Thank you for the charts I'm learning slowly lol
Mine looks almost exactly like the one on the left, but more black marks.
Ill try to get a picture

 

[Dave 54]

Looking owards to seeing it .

rgrds

Dave

 

[fishin4cars]

If you have them with barbels, it would be interesting to see some pics! It would also be cool to see if you can isolate 3-4 and see if they breed. My guess is that if they do, you really have Koi. If you still think they are breeding hybirds, you might want to get some DNA testing. You could have a valuable fish there and be able to start a new species!

Craig

I've been trying to get some photos. I have two hybrid I KNOW for certain that has barbels. A female butterfly Sanke, to 1 of three goldfish, two in the pic below that had in QT when she spawned. The female koi is a fat stubby bodied butterfly. I tried getting pictures of her but no luck today. Here some pics from the babies in the fish tank, and the babies in the pond. Toby the cream colored one with the red spot was actually the toby of the group, it probably ate 50% of the babies. The black one I didn't see barbels until just the last couple of weeks. Toby is probably getting close to 7", the black one maybe 4". Then there is the ones I don't see barbels on. the blue and orange one acts like a koi but has the face and body of a shubunkin. But the coloration is far more like a koi. Then there are the tank babies. These are the ones I kept after culling and rehoming. The sanke colored one (Patches) has very tiny barbels but very tiny, The orange and black spotted one has barbels but IMO a serious deformed head. All the rest I have not seen any barbels on.

 

[Dave 54]

I've been trying to get some photos. I have two hybrid I KNOW for certain that has barbels. A female butterfly Sanke, to 1 of three goldfish, two in the pic below that had in QT when she spawned. The female koi is a fat stubby bodied butterfly. I tried getting pictures of her but no luck today. Here some pics from the babies in the fish tank, and the babies in the pond. Toby the cream colored one with the red spot was actually the toby of the group, it probably ate 50% of the babies. The black one I didn't see barbels until just the last couple of weeks. Toby is probably getting close to 7", the black one maybe 4". Then there is the ones I don't see barbels on. the blue and orange one acts like a koi but has the face and body of a shubunkin. But the coloration is far more like a koi. Then there are the tank babies. These are the ones I kept after culling and rehoming. The sanke colored one (Patches) has very tiny barbels but very tiny, The orange and black spotted one has barbels but IMO a serious deformed head. All the rest I have not seen any barbels on.

The first lot of photo's they were definately barbles but the tank shots where all out of focus so you cant tell really but they are some really nice koi I'd like to see them all grown up give them say 2 years to mature a little, Ive a feeling that they are going to be pretty nice by then .
They remind me of Koromo/Goromo's and we love them with a vengence they are really nice looking koi , we have three in the pond at the momemet one Goromo and two koromo's

rgrds

Dave

 

[fishin4cars]

LOL, the ones in the tank aren't easy to get pics of. the camera has a problem with trying to focus on the glass not the fish. I have far better pics but I was trying to get the best pics of the mouth's and see if I could get pics of the barbels or lack of.
The only one that is showing any characteristics of Goromo is the one in the pond, second row second pic above. We have a Goromo that we bought and it is a nice colored fish but not one of my favorites. I wouldn't mind getting a better quality one to watch grow up. Right now I have been working on building up my collection of Doitsu Koi, I have a weakness for Kumonryu, Beni Kumonryu, Beni Kikikoryu, Doitsu showa, Kikusui, and Ki Doitsu.

 

[Craig58]

Those black ones do look like they definitly have barbels on them and they do look more like goldfish then koi to me. Looks like you are part of the 1%!!!

Craig

 

[fishin4cars]

Yea, like I stated, the black one and the cream one for sure have clear barbels. Patches the calico/sanke looking one the barbels are so small but they are there. the rest I don't see any and I have watched and watched for many hours. Her is a pic of the Mom. If you look in my showcase thread there is a far better pic of her when she actually had sumi showing, now there are only a few shimmies, really a poor koi to be using for breeding but she has provided some valuable experience and for an accidental spawning, I'm not complaining.

 

[Craig58]

I'm wondering if the barbels are a result of having a butterfly koi in the breeding? As you know the butterfly has, I believe, Asian Carp lines in them. I wonder if this makes a difference in the goldfish/butterfly hybrids over say a traditional koi/goldfish hybrid?

I don't know, I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Craig

 

[Fishylove]

That makes logical sense Craig. I just hope all goes smooth next spring with the ponds and all, id like to try my hand at raising some fry.

 

[capewind]

I'm wondering if the barbels are a result of having a butterfly koi in the breeding? As you know the butterfly has, I believe, Asian Carp lines in them. I wonder if this makes a difference in the goldfish/butterfly hybrids over say a traditional koi/goldfish hybrid?

I don't know, I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Craig

Good question Craig... one of the arguements regarding koi/goldfish cross being sterile relates to being different species/different chromosone counts... What is the chrome count of a "standard fin koi" verses that of the asian carp? could be the same, but wondering about a specific mutation in some of the butterfly koi.... I hate to use this as an analogy, but take a person with down sydrome... an extra chromosone... clearly/undisputably, they are absolutely human... I dont know the statistics of any percentage of people being affect with DS being sterile, but do know some have gone on to have children of their own (some with the correct number of chromosones at that),