6 fish died in last month

[Dave 54]

Would never dream of blaming you Dave, why would I.
As said thanks for your advice.
No matter what a living creature is, all should be treated the same.
I do,hope you are not hinting that I am mis treating my fish.
Far from it.

No Rach being from the UK like me we are both open to proscicution if reported to the RSPCA we have to prove all reasonable care is being taken with our fish something we hobbists fought long and hard over , had the govenment of that day got its ay we woud have even lost our fish and koi shows so the high ups in our respective hobbies i'e koi and in your case goldfish.
Meyer there is no communication mix up both Rach and I are from the UK its the law and we have to abibe by it so I'm trying to help Rach as best as I can from this end
But the poster isnt meaning fully mistreating her fish as she need to learn a tad more thats all , I was the same when I started we all make mistakes I'll even hazzard a guess you did at the start

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

No Rach being from the UK like me we are both open to proscicution if reported to the RSPCA we have to prove all reasonable care is being taken with our fish something we hobbists fought long and hard over , had the govenment of that day got its ay we woud have even lost our fish and koi shows so the high ups in our respective hobbies i'e koi and in your case goldfish.
Meyer there is no communication mix up both Rach and I are from the UK its the law and we have to abibe by it so I'm trying to help Rach as best as I can from this end
But the poster isnt meaning fully mistreating her fish as she need to learn a tad more thats all , I was the same when I started we all make mistakes I'll even hazzard a guess you did at the start

Dave

Unless my eyes are failing me (more than is usual), Rach has an eco-system pond. The maintenance requirements are different than those needed in a dedicated Koi pond, as they should be because more of the natural checks and balances are being utilized and these should not be abrogated. This is not a difference in approaches to pond keeping, but recognizing that there are major differences between the two (2) main forms of this hobby.

 

[Dave 54]

Unless my eyes are failing me (more than is usual), Rach has an eco-system pond. The maintenance requirements are different than those needed in a dedicated Koi pond, as they should be because more of the natural checks and balances are being utilized and these should not be abrogated. This is not a difference in approaches to pond keeping, but recognizing that there are major differences between the two (2) main forms of this hobby.

Sorry Meyer your our eco pond expert and from what I understand you create your ponds to work as a natural pond.
This pond isnt at all natural it has a UPVC liner atop of which sits a solid mat of detritus even the night time shots show it especially the last one which will give you some idea of the depth of it.
So this pond is clearly not working as it should do especally if Rach is loosing fish has she has been doing .
Looking at the goldfish on its side we can see fin rot for starters.
Now I dont want to see Rach in trouble but we are bound with a duty of care to our animals under the New Animal Wellfare bill 2010.
This means you have a duty of care to your animals "its that serious".
Now you can call it an eco pond if you like personally the pond at this moment in time a death trap .
We need to know everything from Ammonia through to Disolved oxygen levels in the pond
As an Eco pond specialist I was hoping you would tell me this pond isnt working and for why, if you look back Rach even mentioned a large mat of detritus/dead algae on the ponds surface.
When I had asked her to clean the bottom of the pond her reply I believe was I dont have to do it as a mat of this floating on the ponds surface to be picked up by her ..
She states "There is allot of I presume dead algae and I clear that off the surface with a net. Do I need to get off the bottom too?"
My answer to that even to a pond keeper would be yes you do cyrstal clear water doesnt neccessarilly mean good water
Rach what did you test your water perameters with strip or drop test kit ?



Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Sorry Meyer your our eco pond expert and from what I understand you create your ponds to work as a natural pond.
This pond isnt at all natural it has a UPVC liner atop of which sits a solid mat of detritus even the night time shots show it especially the last one which will give you some idea of the depth of it.
So this pond is clearly not working as it should do especally if Rach is loosing fish has she has been doing .
Looking at the goldfish on its side we can see fin rot for starters.
Now I dont want to see Rach in trouble but we are bound with a duty of care to our animals under the New Animal Wellfare bill 2010.
This means you have a duty of care to your animals "its that serious".
Now you can call it an eco pond if you like personally the pond at this moment in time a death trap .
We need to know everything from Ammonia through to Disolved oxygen levels in the pond
As an Eco pond specialist I was hoping you would tell me this pond isnt working and for why, if you look back Rach even mentioned a large mat of detritus/dead algae on the ponds surface.
When I had asked her to clean the bottom of the pond her reply I believe was I dont have to do it as a mat of this floating on the ponds surface to be picked up by her ..
She states "There is allot of I presume dead algae and I clear that off the surface with a net. Do I need to get off the bottom too?"
My answer to that even to a pond keeper would be yes you do cyrstal clear water doesnt neccessarilly mean good water
Rach what did you test your water perameters with strip or drop test kit ?



Dave

I am not going to belabor the point, but Rach stated that the sediment layer was 1/2 centimeter in thickness. Sediment of that thickness is actually beneficial in an eco-system pond. The pond does appear to have a lot of blanket week, but that should only pose aesthetic issues in a Goldfish pond.
I can't really address the animal welfare ordinances in effect in the UK, but I am confident that they are in place to prevent intentional animal cruelty and not prosecute for lack of knowledge.
Rach came on this Forum seeking assistance, not to be berated by a established member.
The term 'natural pond' is of your own choosing. I consistently refer to this type of pond as 'eco-system'. The only thing missing in an eco-system pond is a layer of soil on the bottom. Add soil and it will support every process present in a naturally occurring pond.

 

[Dave 54]

I am not going to belabor the point, but Rach stated that the sediment layer was 1/2 centimeter in thickness. Sediment of that thickness is actually beneficial in an eco-system pond. The pond does appear to have a lot of blanket week, but that should only pose aesthetic issues in a Goldfish pond.
I can't really address the animal welfare ordinances in effect in the UK, but I am confident that they are in place to prevent intentional animal cruelty and not prosecute for lack of knowledge.
Rach came on this Forum seeking assistance, not to be berated by a established member.
The term 'natural pond' is of your own choosing. I consistently refer to this type of pond as 'eco-system'. The only thing missing in an eco-system pond is a layer of soil on the bottom. Add soil and it will support every process present in a naturally occurring pond.

I'm far from bertating her Meyer I am concerned to say the very least about the state of affairs with this pond at this particular moment in time and only wish to understand the mechanics of what is going on in this pond to stop her goldfish dying off as they are ,
But the 2010 Animal welfare bill stands in the way of this because an official would ask why havent you read up on this to stop the fatalities .
Even before the change in the law the RSPCA came down hard with fish keepers , I recal one case where a person had simply gone on holiday and they became involved where they celotaped a dpoor to a house for two weeks before the owner came back from holiday , he took them to court and won bringing in people like Dick Mills Fish Author to say that these algae eating fish were indeed able to eat algae from the tnk for the period of that persons holiday.
The upshot was the case then fell apart but in 2010 things got tougher here in the UK like I previously stated it took some of the top people in the koi an aquatic circles both FBAS and the BKKS to argue their corner as the RSPCA wanted to ban all show's entirely .
This took place in the year running up to the new Bill this meant repeated visits to Pariament to go before a panel of MP's putting the case forwards for us.
The weird part is now the former head of the BKKS Health forum and our health officer though quite capable of doing his own shows health wise had to have one of his own officers come to our show to report back to him what he already knew this is how serious it has got .
Even here we must show that our koi are fit for the show or you are ordered home wth your fish
I didnt accuse Rach of intentional cruelty all I'm guilty of if anything is in trying to get to the bottom of this. Remembering the fact that the clock is ticking on the lives of the others .
You and I have a good track record on this site its down to us to help Rach an stop her loosing fish whilst trying at the same time to educate Rach into our hobby propperly

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I'm far from bertating her Meyer I am concerned to say the very least about the state of affairs with this pond at this particular moment in time and only wish to understand the mechanics of what is going on in this pond to stop her goldfish dying off as they are ,
But the 2010 Animal welfare bill stands in the way of this because an official would ask why havent you read up on this to stop the fatalities .
Even before the change in the law the RSPCA came down hard with fish keepers , I recal one case where a person had simply gone on holiday and they became involved where they celotaped a dpoor to a house for two weeks before the owner came back from holiday , he took them to court and won bringing in people like Dick Mills Fish Author to say that these algae eating fish were indeed able to eat algae from the tnk for the period of that persons holiday.
The upshot was the case then fell apart but in 2010 things got tougher here in the UK like I previously stated it took some of the top people in the koi an aquatic circles both FBAS and the BKKS to argue their corner as the RSPCA wanted to ban all show's entirely .
This took place in the year running up to the new Bill this meant repeated visits to Pariament to go before a panel of MP's putting the case forwards for us.
The weird part is now the former head of the BKKS Health forum and our health officer though quite capable of doing his own shows health wise had to have one of his own officers come to our show to report back to him what he already knew this is how serious it has got .
Even here we must show that our koi are fit for the show or you are ordered home wth your fish
I didnt accuse Rach of intentional cruelty all I'm guilty of if anything is in trying to get to the bottom of this. Remembering the fact that the clock is ticking on the lives of the others .
You and I have a good track record on this site its down to us to help Rach an stop her loosing fish whilst trying at the same time to educate Rach into our hobby propperly

Dave

Sorry Dave, but I do not agree with your approach. You have advised Rach on the existence of UK laws protecting fish. Belaboring the point is counter-productive. Time would be better spent on education, not admonishment.

 

[Dave 54]

Sorry Dave, but I do not agree with your approach. You have advised Rach on the existence of UK laws protecting fish. Belaboring the point is counter-productive. Time would be better spent on education, not admonishment.

I am neither belaboring nor using abmonishment Its a fact .
That pond in my view is the thing that is causing the deaths of her fish, I'm sorry natural or not its desperately in need of a complete overhaul the last nighttime shot shows just how deep this detritus is .
You know yourself its the favorite place for fungal spores to grow or a gram negative or positive bacteria all waiting to take hold of her fish the goldfish on its side in the day time shots shows there is definately fin rot for starters !!!!.....I personally would say this may well be Columnaris Disease caused by poor water quality Low levels of Disolved Oxygen poor water Quality Overstocking good pond husbandry needs to take place.
Meyer I have great admiration for you your a good man but it seems this time we are calling things differently I say clean you say not where do we go from here ?
I mentioned the new laws to focus Rach thats all Meyer, who knows it may even work and she'll remember it for the future

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I am neither belaboring nor using abmonishment Its a fact .
That pond in my view is the thing that is causing the deaths of her fish, I'm sorry natural or not its desperately in need of a complete overhaul the last nighttime shot shows just how deep this detritus is .
You know yourself its the favorite place for fungal spores to grow or a gram negative or positive bacteria all waiting to take hold of her fish the goldfish on its side in the day time shots shows there is definately fin rot for starters !!!!.....I personally would say this may well be Columnaris Disease caused by poor water quality Low levels of Disolved Oxygen poor water Quality Overstocking good pond husbandry needs to take place.
Meyer I have great admiration for you your a good man but it seems this time we are calling things differently I say clean you say not where do we go from here ?
I mentioned the new laws to focus Rach thats all Meyer, who knows it may even work and she'll remember it for the future

Dave

You are obviously seeing more in these less than ideal photos than I am. I see no fin rot or physical signs of disease. Low DO can be ruled out considering we are dealing with Goldfish. Already stated that sediment layer was 1/2 centimeter, not a problem thickness.
What did get my attention and the reason that I inquired about pesticide or herbicide use in the vicinity of the pond was the condition of the vegetation and the fact that there is no obvious algae growth on any of the rock. Definitely a sign of chemical pollution. I still lean towards this diagnosis of the problem.

 

[Dave 54]

It goes against everything I know about ponds Meyer to have that much detritus mulch etc in the pond , what was the blue Bacteria stuff Rach was on about if it was a bacteriaside it indicates a bacterial problem as I previously stated ?

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Without actually seeing the container, it could be a treatment for bacterial disease or it could be a container of beneficial bacteria..
Again Dave, I do not see, based on the supplied photos, any evidence of over-accumulation of debris or detritus. I have to rely of what Rach stated.."1/2 cm of sediment on the bottom of the pond".
Have you ever seen the bottom of an earthen-bottom pond. It is quite common to find several inches of 'muck' on top of which may rest several more inches of organic debris. This causes no harm to the eco-system if left undisturbed, which is the typical state. Here is where most of the invertebrate activity occurs. It is called the Benthic Layer. Its existence is crucial in achieving a natural chemical and biological balance in an aquatic ecosystem.
Also, it is a well-known fact, that Goldfish (and other species) prefer and thrive in euthrophic bodies of water.

 

[Dave 54]

I previously stated Columnaris yes?
I'm currently studying Edward Norga book it which arrived late last year it looks like I may well be right infection from Columnaris as I previously stated likes overstocking poor water qualityespecially with high levels of Ammonia.
It starts mid-to late spring when temperatures on the pond hit at 15c which is the temperature our pond is now at.So it appears to be quite feasable that it is Columnaris disease
I've cleaned ponds out back in the days I was alott Fitter Meyer so I was aware of the amount that can build up.
OK so the.the thing is if her pond is as you state hale and hearty then why add beneficial bacteria the pond doesnt need it?
Once our system is up and running and its filters mature then apart from adding various clay mixes .
The only time koi are in Earthen ponds is to grow them on from fry .
Then after that they live life in their formal ponds[why we do things that way I know not but it works] they are spotless apart from an even coating of alae sides and bottom of the pond......
We'll have to get her to take the last night shot in the daylight , [speaking of invertrabrates].............
We do however get alott of invertabrate activity in our filters Which mature quite rapidly after cleaning , you can see the small cast marks all over the sides of the filters .
"If left un disturbed" an interesting statement Meyer, maybe something disrupted this layer causing the problems its causing now.
Its like if gravel above an undergravel filter is disurbed and the lower conents get above the gravel then problems can occur I know to my cost as I disturbed this layer a month prior to our koi going into the pond , swabs had to be taken to a vet to asertain if it was gram Positive or negative .
Once that was asertained we started them on baytril until the course was finished and the koi were able to go into the pond where many still live today

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I previously stated Columnaris yes?
I'm currently studying Edward Norga book it which arrived late last year it looks like I may well be right infection from Columnaris as I previously stated likes overstocking poor water qualityespecially with high levels of Ammonia.
It starts mid-to late spring when temperatures on the pond hit at 15c which is the temperature our pond is now at.So it appears to be quite feasable that it is Columnaris disease
I've cleaned ponds out back in the days I was alott Fitter Meyer so I was aware of the amount that can build up.
OK so the.the thing is if her pond is as you state hale and hearty then why add beneficial bacteria the pond doesnt need it?
Once our system is up and running and its filters mature then apart from adding various clay mixes .
The only time koi are in Earthen ponds is to grow them on from fry .
Then after that they live life in their formal ponds[why we do things that way I know not but it works] they are spotless apart from an even coating of alae sides and bottom of the pond......
We'll have to get her to take the last night shot in the daylight , [speaking of invertrabrates].............
We do however get alott of invertabrate activity in our filters Which mature quite rapidly after cleaning , you can see the small cast marks all over the sides of the filters .
"If left un disturbed" an interesting statement Meyer, maybe something disrupted this layer causing the problems its causing now.
Its like if gravel above an undergravel filter is disurbed and the lower conents get above the gravel then problems can occur I know to my cost as I disturbed this layer a month prior to our koi going into the pond , swabs had to be taken to a vet to asertain if it was gram Positive or negative .
Once that was asertained we started them on baytril until the course was finished and the koi were able to go into the pond where many still live today

Dave

Dave, do other research in addition to your books.
Diagnosing a disease long distance based on poor photos and scant information is at best conjecture and borders on pure folly. A Vet would point this out.
What few invertebrate that may colonize a bio-filter are hardly of sufficient number or diversity to make any impact in a dedicated Koi pond or any other.
If you will go back and read my comment, the 'undisturbed' caveat was about natural earthen-bottom ponds with over a foot of muck and debris. Again, I repeat, 1/2 cm of sediment is nothing to be concerned about.
Interesting comment about undergravel filtration. Experienced veteran aquarists recommend that these be cleaned periodically as any other filter and do not hesitate using this type of filtration in the most sophisticated of aquaria. Can't be too dangerous.
Koi are put in earthen ponds at various stages of development, not just when they are fry, for one reason.....Growth! Koi, like any other fish, will grow best when in its natural environment feeding on its natural diet. This is why it is strongly stressed not to release unwanted Koi or Goldfish into a public waterway. They will thrive and quickly multiply and crowd out the native species. They are that durable and adaptive. It is because of this ability to adapt to what are usually defined as impaired conditions that Carp, including Koi, and Goldfish are listed as either nuisance or invasive species in many countries including Great Britain. They are banned in most of Australia and all of New Zealand and even here in the U.S. by the State of Maine.

Whatever the origin of Rach's crisis, there is still too little information to determine what it may be. Any analysis at this point is truly conjecture.

 

[Dave 54]

You say Diagnosing a disease long distance based on photo's and scant information is pure folly ?
Meyer alot of the people on GPf weve helped since 2012 will tell you different ....normally the information we get is good/
I agree koi are put in earthen ponds for growth but after leaving Japan or a dealership that has growing on ponds thats the last they will see of them , we bring them on adding clay instead of having them swim in mud ponds where we couldnt really see them.
Could you show me the report about koi being an invasive specie in the UK its the first ime weve heard that,but isnt that true of many species that are introduced your making Goldfish and koi out to be master criminals see Cefas Defra report UK into introduced many historically into the UK :-

http://www.cefas.defra.gov.uk/our-s...mation/freshwater-fisheries/species-list.aspx

I know about them being banned in all but two states in Austrailia and totally in NewZealand, however Goldfish are still allowed according to a GPF member who lives in NewZealand.
I didnt know about Maine having banned them, I know of a man made lake in Cornwall that has them as I gave its owner some of my larger koi last year[the lake is on private property,Angling is banned from it and more importantly with no other water souces they could escape too] so I dont feel as though I've broke any laws nor helped in spreading this species.
Species invasion is rife in the UK[pet trade] red eared sliders, snapping turtles American crayfish grey Squirels [hoticultural trade] NewZealand Preditory flat worms Termites then we need look at trees shrubs and plants, Aquatic plants need I go on as man is the culprit not the species that has taken up home often in antiquty, all good koi books comment on the spread of Carp from Asia to Europe used as food often to be found in the grounds of religious retreates as a food sourse for the Monks therin.
The worlds biggest invasive Species to the cost of any and all species "MAN"....

Koi are blamed by the angling fraternity for spreading KHV but the truth is it has never been proven as no koi have been caught.and bad tackle practice bio-security wise along with the importaton of monster carp from french fishing lakes makes that the likeliest two vectors for its spread through the UK's angling lakes.
Any member of the BKKS practices bio-security specifically designed to stop KHV and it is concidered good practice to disinfect our oown nets after use.
.

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

This is the shot that raises a red flag of warning in me, it gives you an idea of the depth of the detritus Meyer it is certainly alot deeper than was previously said there looks to be inches of it ..........Rach said what....... half a centimeter..


Dave

 

[Dave 54]

Anyway Rach please except my appologies we appear to have gotten a tad of track, this isnt helping Meyer has his ideas of your pond I another and never the twain will meet so to say .
I felt as I was in the wrong on this thread it didnt get heated but both of us are entrenched at oposite sides of the scale , one of us has to fall on his sword otherwise we will never get to the bottom of this and in my view time is of the essence in curing these fish before even more die .
I feel Meyer should be the person to help on this thread if thats ok with you Meyer , one thing though we really need to know what the results of the water tests where i'e there are varying numbers that corrolate to diffring colours on the liquid drop test kit's or where test strips used Meyer will also need to know what the blue bottle of bacteria was , so please could you ring your fish shop for the answers to these questions it will help greatly Sorry again Rach

Dave