Wintering frigid temps in GA

[Shdwdrgn]

Regarding *super*cooling... Have you ever seen those videos where someone carefully pulls a bottled water out of a freezer which is obviously still liquified, but as soon as they bump the bottle the water instantly freezes? Water can be well below 32F and not be frozen. In fact at my altitude water gets down to about 29F before it freezes naturally. Of course the bottled-water thing can't happen in a pond, but other conditions might make it possible? Realistically though, I think even when you have ice on the pond, the water is usually several degrees warmer, so I think the super-cooling being referenced is from stiring up the water so much that it is all very close to the freezing point through the whole pond... and THAT would be bad for the fish.

Your point about the pumps raises another issue where my pond differs greatly from most others... I have two ponds connected by a stream, and the lower pond (containing the pumps) is quite a bit smaller. The fish stay in the upper pond (which is twice as deep) during the Winter, so the only water moving through the pumps is from the coldest areas, and all the warmer water remains undisturbed.

 

[Lisak1]

I think the super-cooling being referenced is from stiring up the water so much that it is all very close to the freezing point through the whole pond

I think that gets close to an explanation that makes sense to my unscientific mind - if I pull warm water from the bottom and replace it with cold at the top, I will probably lower the overall temperature of my pond. I'm not sure I would refer to that as "super cooling" but maybe that's what it is.

Like you, my pond is constructed a bit differently - our pond flows in to a rain reservoir that holds 1000 gallons of water six feet underground, so the water that is pumped back to the top and up through the bog (and down the waterfall and back into the pond) is probably at the same temperature as the water at the bottom of the pond. I've never checked it though to test that theory - if we get the warmer temps they are predicting by the end of the week, I may go out and do just that. It would be another interesting piece of the puzzle!

 

[addy1]

@addy - I can't imagine a temperature swing of 30F would be enough to hurt the fish by itself. There must have been something else that contributed? Did that guy have a raised pond or something else that contributed to heat loss? I say this because in my area, it is very common to see temperature swings of more than 50F in just a few hours as different storms blow in. Just a couple weeks ago we had the temperature swing from 8F to 53F in 3 hours, but it barely affected my water temperature.

In ground large pond, around 11000 gallons, every fish died. Using a ap100 for an aerator, which is pretty powerful. The water was bubbling up around 5 inches or so, so he said. He had it in the shallow end, around a foot down. His deep end was 6 feet or so.

 

[randythawkins]

I also live in Georgia, Marietta area to be specific. When designing my pond I was concerned about the very thing you mentioned in your initial post - will water flowing over the falls ice up and cause overflows? My solution was in the return line from the pump to the pond. I have a single line which feeds to my falls. From there I split into 3 lines in a PVC pipe manifold I made and the 3 lines are labeled "Pond TPR", "Waterfall", and "Waterfall bypass". The TPR and Bypass ones run directly into the pond and the Waterfall one feeds my falls. I run with any 2 of the 3 open at any given time and, most of the time, the TPR and Waterfall are the 2. Last week with the threat of freezing temperatures I turned the Waterfall off and opened the Bypass. By doing this I am able to maintain the desired amount turnover without the risk of overflows.

I have details in my build thread starting at https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/construction-of-the-hawkins-family-pond.12285/page-4

I don't know the details of your construction but it might be worth while adding a similar bypass.

Randy

 

[callingcolleen1]

Can you explain what that actually means? I could see that adding cooler water to the pond may drop the temperature, but what does "superchilling" or "supercooling" imply? It sounds like it's much more than just causing a drop in water temperature.

actually "super cooled" water can technically only happen in a science lab or done in freezer with reverse osmosis water, as regular tab water contains too many impurities to super cool.

I have been wintering my ponds up here in Canada for over 20 years, and I have about 3500 Gallons of water between all three connecting ponds, which the water runs all winter long, for past 24 years, in temperatures as low as -45 below zero, and I never seen this Super Cooled water ever in my ponds. The water simply turns to ice, and this ice grows thicker. I do use on heater for all three ponds, {that helps keep water above freezing} and water only gets to about 32 degrees. My very first two koi are still very much alive and well after 24 years outside with running water.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Water falling from high levels and exposed to extreme cold, the waterfall would still grow ice well over everything before the water was super chilled. The danger in high waterfalls is that the main water source would run low as much of the water would be displaced and turned into ice. The waterfalls are in nature and fish still can live in such conditions.

Niagara Falls, and cold water fish live in there, and Koi and Goldfish are cold water fish too,

 

[Dave 54]

Acctually Colleen koi are not a cold water species so you are technically wrong koi orginated from Japan where their winters are somewhat different than the ones in the West , theirs are short and sharp ours are long and cold.
All koi originated out of Japan and are bred in various countries which may give them regional variations in coping with their colder enviroments, but winter outdoors is a stressful time for them all the same.
Most experts now agree they should be in a heated pond during the winter months or brought indoors .
If you read through the link the good Doctor Johnson mentions cattle heaters .

Dave

 

[DrCase]

I turned my high water fall off for the winter this year.
By doing so I was able to drain 3 filters and lots of pipe ,
That leaves me with just 2 filter running on each pond
Making it a lot less work when I have to shut down when the temps get to low

 

[Lisak1]

Acctually Colleen koi are not a cold water species

They aren't? They definitely aren't tropical, so how would you classify them?

 

[callingcolleen1]

Koi do live in the great lakes, which is in the same general region, your experts maybe are wrong, cause my old books say goldfish and koi are all cold water fish!

http://www.ehow.com/info_8065050_list-types-cold-water-fish.html

 

[callingcolleen1]

Lots of people think that koi and goldfish cannot live in such conditions, but mine do, as do others, and they do very well. It is the way people winter their fish; Lots of time they run out of clean water and get trapped under way too much ice and not enough water. Then lots of pond water gets lost out of the pond if you run large waterfalls or streams. The main source of water can be quickly depleted during extreme cold, as water is "displaced" out of the main pond and turned into thick ice on splashing streams and waterfall. As the ice grows, the water shrinks, and people look out the window and see the layer of ice and think all is well, not realizing that the ice is really now a thick ice cap, and the water level below is very low and fish are laying in dirty uncirculated bad water conditions. I have seen this happen lots to other people.

If you are going to winter your pond, in extreme cold, my very best advice is to leave the water running, shut down splashy things and water falls included cause most will cause water to be lost. If you only have one level pond, then you should have pump pull water from one end of pond, and run hose under water to other end of pond, and have that end of the hose close to water level. That way the water will be circulated and then put a heater near where the water circulates the water good. That way the water will be more evenly heated and fish will not hang out at heater gasping for air from one small hole in the ice,
.
Make sure you check the level of the water every day during extreme cold, like minis 20 to 30 below freezing. Top up the water in pond till the water starts to flood the ice, that way it will melt ice hole around heater (and good water circulating) better.

If you do not use a good heater during extreme cold, then expect up to two feet of thick ice! If your pond is 5 feet deep, then only three feet of water will be left, and fish are probably really sad and the water quality really drops off fast if water is stagnant too!

Last and not least, if your ground freezes below 4 feet like mine, then you pond can freeze four feet down cause the outside ground can be so frozen deep in Canada, and for months on end! Last year there was reports that our ground here in parts of Medicine Hat was frozen 6 feet down and lots of broken water pipes that year! Smaller bodies of water can freeze very hard and very deep very fast! Fish cannot live after being frozen solid, for months on end!

 

[callingcolleen1]

Regarding *super*cooling... Have you ever seen those videos where someone carefully pulls a bottled water out of a freezer which is obviously still liquified, but as soon as they bump the bottle the water instantly freezes? Water can be well below 32F and not be frozen. In fact at my altitude water gets down to about 29F before it freezes naturally. Of course the bottled-water thing can't happen in a pond, but other conditions might make it possible? Realistically though, I think even when you have ice on the pond, the water is usually several degrees warmer, so I think the super-cooling being referenced is from stiring up the water so much that it is all very close to the freezing point through the whole pond... and THAT would be bad for the fish.

Your point about the pumps raises another issue where my pond differs greatly from most others... I have two ponds connected by a stream, and the lower pond (containing the pumps) is quite a bit smaller. The fish stay in the upper pond (which is twice as deep) during the Winter, so the only water moving through the pumps is from the coldest areas, and all the warmer water remains undisturbed.

The water in that bottle is reverse osmosis's water, pure water. Tap water contains too many impurities for that to happen. I have read that normal tap water can be super chilled, but that can only happens only in a Science lab, or in the clouds, but not down here on earth with our "normal mineral rich and salty water".

 

[Dave 54]

They aren't? They definitely aren't tropical, so how would you classify them?

Koi do live in the great lakes, which is in the same general region, your experts maybe are wrong, cause my old books say goldfish and koi are all cold water fish!
http://www.ehow.com/info_8065050_list-types-cold-water-fish.html

Colleen Koi are not the type of fish you see swiming wild in the great lakes they are common carp most probably introduced by your for fathers many moons ago now
Koi and Common carp are closely related , however they are considered by many as differing types of the same species.
But in saying this the are a number of important facts you must consider before classifying them in the same grouping as one another:-
The Carp or the common carp, "Cyprinus carpio", is predominantely a freshwater bony fish species.
However, in saying this should not count only the common carp when the carps are considered, as all the members of the family "Cyprinidae", are referred with the same name.
It would be important to note:-
Scientists refer only to the large bodied cyprinids as carps [Common carp] [Bighead carp] [Crucian carp] [Grass carp} {Black carp] [Mud carp] [ Indonesian river carp]. plus any I may have missed out .
All are carp as such yet have widly differing body sizes and shapes unlike the koi carp.
The koi carp is an ornamental variety of the common carp that have however been seperate now for many hundereds of years through selective breeding by varying Japanese Breeders. from the Magio Eating or wild carp.
1) They have elongated bodies, their fins are shorter and display differing Patterns
2) There are twelve differing classes of koi due to differences in clouration and paterning
3) They do not have varying body shapes across their breed, unlike the wilder cousins
3) The Doitsu is a cross bred large scaled koi introduced from Germany in the 19th centrury
4) Other variations of the duitsu are the the patially scaled and leather verieties,
5) The long finned varieties are a cross between a koi carp and Indonesian River Carp
6) They are classified as Ornamental Carp or Koi
Liska How would you classiy them ? ....well they evolved in a Country that are noted to have short but shap winters, the wild or Common Carp we see in our lakes have evolved for a more colder clime so there is a marked difference of temperate regions between the two, but how to classify them temperature wise however is a hard one "care to take a pop at it ?
The Japanese koi breeders bring their koi indoors for their winter and all the experts I've read , and dealers plus other koi keepers I've met over the last 28 years recomend insulating the pond its pipes and filters and an in line koi heater which range from 1kw upwards .
So how would you term them perhaps sub tropical?

Dave

 

[callingcolleen1]

There is no such thing as sub tropical, there is only warm water and cold water classifications as far as I am aware.

Koi are Carp, they come from Carp, and if you set Koi out in the wild they will revert back to Carp. Selective breeding created fancy breeds which were bred for color and not toughness. Nevertheless, less hardy koi like Butterfly Koi still do manage to do quite well in my ponds in extreme cold. In the wild the long tails would doom the butterfly koi and they would get eaten as babies cause their longer tails and fins would make them too slow.

The so called koi experts are simply wrong, and I and others have proven them wrong time and time again. If most people believe something to be true, is usually is untrue, history proves this. At one time everybody knew the earth was flat too!

 

[Dave 54]

I know ou think your right colleen and that you've done this year on year however the fact is your simply wrong yourself all the experts stack up against you time and again ,
Tell you what turn your cattle heater off we'll see what happens and if your koi die then you are wrong if they all live through it then I'd suggest bringing it up with the experts to see what they say .
Super chilling comes about when you run waterfalls or airstones that are running too high.during the winter months
We each do things our own way I would be irresponsible for not raising the point of this happening to ponds supercooling happens when you run a waterfall what happens is they make the water and air temperature parallel which means as the air temperature plunges so does that of your water thus superchilling your pond.
We run an airstone that is slowly turning over only we also make sure that circulation of our pond is gentle and doesnt break surface of the ponds water with our insulation covers etc our water temperature is pretty constant between 7-9c
Try reading what one of the top koi guru's has to say about koi and winter :-

http://koikichi.com/a-winter-warning/

However colleen its up to you what you do in the end if you choose to run the risk of killing your koi each year then thats totally down to you, each winter I'll run the same warnings .

Dave .