Why are my fish dying this winter, but never before?
- Thread starter 3100Pond
- Start date
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Plaster pills are very old school. Products have changed so much that I do not believe Johnson would still recommend it.
Nowadays, crushed oyster shell, crushed coral, or aragonite. Oyster shells don't dissolve until the pH reaches down around 7.4ish. Coral and aragonite will start dissolving in quite higher pHs. These are often used to maintain stability.
Nowadays, only time I have heard of baking soda used is for emergencies or prior to a rain storm.
Pills likely still work fine for Dave due to the products available to him to make them.
There is an extremely interesting thread on koiphen breaking down the chemistry at:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-107088.html
Nowadays, crushed oyster shell, crushed coral, or aragonite. Oyster shells don't dissolve until the pH reaches down around 7.4ish. Coral and aragonite will start dissolving in quite higher pHs. These are often used to maintain stability.
Nowadays, only time I have heard of baking soda used is for emergencies or prior to a rain storm.
Pills likely still work fine for Dave due to the products available to him to make them.
There is an extremely interesting thread on koiphen breaking down the chemistry at:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-107088.html
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Lithaqua is not very available here since it is made in Belgium and distributors are extremely limited. In the states here, the biggest distributor of Lithaqua experienced a major mishap so it may not be a year or more until he receives more Lithaqua, unless there is another big distributor here in the states, which I have not found yet. This is the reason I did not mention Lithaqua. If you can find it, then go for it. To read more about it, then read about it on koiphen, Lithaqua. You might be able to purchase some from Laguna Koi, out of southern California.
Plaster pils are just not used here anywhere around here anymore and for good reasons. If you're confident in the ingredients of the plaster, then go for it. If folk are still interested in the pills, then I highly encourage you to first do a test scenario in your QT to make sure it will function as intended. I just can not recommend it due to the variance in plaster products and there are too many other products available now that are much more effective, that also add all sorts of other beneficial organic trace minerals, which plaster pills do not provide.
Plaster pils are just not used here anywhere around here anymore and for good reasons. If you're confident in the ingredients of the plaster, then go for it. If folk are still interested in the pills, then I highly encourage you to first do a test scenario in your QT to make sure it will function as intended. I just can not recommend it due to the variance in plaster products and there are too many other products available now that are much more effective, that also add all sorts of other beneficial organic trace minerals, which plaster pills do not provide.
Being the nice guy that I am here is the link to what I was refairing to namely koi klear gel I needent say more just click on the link and read what it says about the wondrous healing properties that it has ;-
http://www.absolute-koi.com/subcat2086.html
I hope you can get this I really do because this is amazing stuff doubt my word if you like but your missing out if you do.
Sadly this is what I mean just because a person doesnt want to give results rather than talk about them perhaps then they should be listened to its all about the fish and how we help them survive be that system be a bog filter Mechanical Filter or anoxic filter.
rgrds
Dave
http://www.absolute-koi.com/subcat2086.html
I hope you can get this I really do because this is amazing stuff doubt my word if you like but your missing out if you do.
Sadly this is what I mean just because a person doesnt want to give results rather than talk about them perhaps then they should be listened to its all about the fish and how we help them survive be that system be a bog filter Mechanical Filter or anoxic filter.
rgrds
Dave
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
There's no Kusuri distributor's for the Americas indicated on their website. All I could find is Kusuri will export the product only in huge freight purchases due to the cost of transport. I did happen to google a "Kusuri Products USA" in New York, which is a bit odd since they're not on the official Kusuri distributor list and they do not have a phone number listed.
If Lithaqua is not available, then crushed coral or aragonite still remain an excellent alternative.
Yep, Koi Clear Gel has been talked about on koiphen and has been used. There's a koiphen fella that makes annual trips to Japan and he has been asked to talk about it with some breeders. I completely forgot about it until ya mentioned it. Going to see what he has found out. I would bet it works quite well. Honestly, I am not suprised and I would figure an ozonated gel would work well due to the applications of hydrogen peroxide used with swabs in particular treatments.
If Lithaqua is not available, then crushed coral or aragonite still remain an excellent alternative.
Yep, Koi Clear Gel has been talked about on koiphen and has been used. There's a koiphen fella that makes annual trips to Japan and he has been asked to talk about it with some breeders. I completely forgot about it until ya mentioned it. Going to see what he has found out. I would bet it works quite well. Honestly, I am not suprised and I would figure an ozonated gel would work well due to the applications of hydrogen peroxide used with swabs in particular treatments.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2011
- Messages
- 2,367
- Reaction score
- 1,585
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Hardiness Zone
- 9a
- Country
Well that got out of hand! Let's try and keep it on topic and help 3100Pond solve their problem. I have removed off topic inflammatory content as bickering doesn't help anyone.
A plaster pill should definitely be added to your pond. That should fix the issue.
I caught on page one of this thread about thousands of koi in 2 ft deep ponds overwintering well ???
To put it quite simply koi do not over winter well in the cold that is a total myth I'm affraid...
If you ask this question to Peter Waddington on his website, he would quite simply blow his top at the statement that thousands of koi over winter in the cold happily.
Peter spebt alott of time studying with the greats among the breaders , it took him years of being there before they would eve talk to him but you could say he learnt from the masters
They are in his eyes from a country that has a very cold but far shorter winter than we do in the west you could even say they are semi tropical.
Peter is the Worlds number one koi author, with his books koi kichi and koi2kichi which are both stunning books to read.
All the Breeders in Japan empty their mud ponds and house their koi in heated sheds prior to the start of winter and they are kept indoors till the spring.
It is strongly recomended that koi should either be kept indoors or at least in a heated pond
They dont like the cold but if your lucky they will get through it, but in a stressed state.
This same stressed state leaves them in a weakend condition and thus open to Parasites this in turn can lead to the demise of your koi if you dont do scrapes and get on top of them rapidly
According to Peters recsearch on this subject hundereds of thousands are lost each winter in the west, because the length of our winters and a lack of heating in ponds.
An intense cold period may well be the finish of them
This is the main reason that I now heat my pond each winter.......
rgrds
Dave
To put it quite simply koi do not over winter well in the cold that is a total myth I'm affraid...
If you ask this question to Peter Waddington on his website, he would quite simply blow his top at the statement that thousands of koi over winter in the cold happily.
Peter spebt alott of time studying with the greats among the breaders , it took him years of being there before they would eve talk to him but you could say he learnt from the masters
They are in his eyes from a country that has a very cold but far shorter winter than we do in the west you could even say they are semi tropical.
Peter is the Worlds number one koi author, with his books koi kichi and koi2kichi which are both stunning books to read.
All the Breeders in Japan empty their mud ponds and house their koi in heated sheds prior to the start of winter and they are kept indoors till the spring.
It is strongly recomended that koi should either be kept indoors or at least in a heated pond
They dont like the cold but if your lucky they will get through it, but in a stressed state.
This same stressed state leaves them in a weakend condition and thus open to Parasites this in turn can lead to the demise of your koi if you dont do scrapes and get on top of them rapidly
According to Peters recsearch on this subject hundereds of thousands are lost each winter in the west, because the length of our winters and a lack of heating in ponds.
An intense cold period may well be the finish of them
This is the main reason that I now heat my pond each winter.......
rgrds
Dave
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Good point.
But.. if ya can't afford heating the water... then, don't worry. I have read of many koi, including show quality koi, come out of their torpar state without issues. Cold temperatures do not necessarily help koi, but koi are cold blooded critters and cold temperatures are their native habitat. If the koi do succumb to ailments after a long cold WInter, then it is more likely due to poor pond management, poor water quality management, and lack of precautionary procedures between Winter and Spring.
I have, and still am, following Mr. Waddington's progression in the koi hobby in his forums related to the ERIC and his involvement on themtherekoyas forum. He also suggests that the ASPCA and animal activist groups should be involved in the koi hobby. So, I don't necessarily view him as the grand poobah in the koi hobby. He's also not the only guy out there that makes annual trips to Japan to have intimate talks with breeders.
Yep, it is correct I have not read of any breeders allowing the water temperatures fall too far below 50*F. Often, the lowest I have read them go is 58*F so to properly put the fish through a fasting stage to help with their conformation.
Breeders also take the fish out of the ponds so they can drain the mud ponds, dredge them, turn over the mud, and rebuild the foundation and they also nuke the heck out of their mud ponds along the process before placing their fish back in them.
One particular thread I have really enjoyed is one talking about pond covers and good threads here as well about overwintering. These really help to reduce the cost of heating a pond. I have also read these temporary structures built so stout that they can hold up two feet of snow.
Heating the water, one way or another, is definitely a good point to consider and, if ya can't, then proper management will make a big difference with increasing mortality rates.
But.. if ya can't afford heating the water... then, don't worry. I have read of many koi, including show quality koi, come out of their torpar state without issues. Cold temperatures do not necessarily help koi, but koi are cold blooded critters and cold temperatures are their native habitat. If the koi do succumb to ailments after a long cold WInter, then it is more likely due to poor pond management, poor water quality management, and lack of precautionary procedures between Winter and Spring.
I have, and still am, following Mr. Waddington's progression in the koi hobby in his forums related to the ERIC and his involvement on themtherekoyas forum. He also suggests that the ASPCA and animal activist groups should be involved in the koi hobby. So, I don't necessarily view him as the grand poobah in the koi hobby. He's also not the only guy out there that makes annual trips to Japan to have intimate talks with breeders.
Yep, it is correct I have not read of any breeders allowing the water temperatures fall too far below 50*F. Often, the lowest I have read them go is 58*F so to properly put the fish through a fasting stage to help with their conformation.
Breeders also take the fish out of the ponds so they can drain the mud ponds, dredge them, turn over the mud, and rebuild the foundation and they also nuke the heck out of their mud ponds along the process before placing their fish back in them.
One particular thread I have really enjoyed is one talking about pond covers and good threads here as well about overwintering. These really help to reduce the cost of heating a pond. I have also read these temporary structures built so stout that they can hold up two feet of snow.
Heating the water, one way or another, is definitely a good point to consider and, if ya can't, then proper management will make a big difference with increasing mortality rates.
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
- Messages
- 7,046
- Reaction score
- 7,241
- Location
- Water Valley, Alberta
- Showcase(s):
- 1
- Hardiness Zone
- 2a
- Country
I'm not sure of the origin/history of Koi in Canada, but is it possible that the species has been bred over here (North America) to withstand lower temperatures?
Mitch I know of a friend who's koi were desimated by the cold even in a Poly Garage she had -24c with a windchill of -54c sh lost koi after koi, she is Canadian.
In the end I suggested she put them in her hubbys workshop at in the winter months they are a toasty 11c now and have really responded well to it in every way.
crsublette we cover the pond with polycarbonate sheeting the pond has 22mm polystyreene sheets then silversided bubble wrap finished of with recycled plastic roof insulation then cases in wood.
The filter housing has 22mm polystyreene sheets insulating the inner shell of the housing that is clad in wood all pipe work and U/V-c clad in wood with inspection ports for valves etc.
The filter housing is double glazed to reflext back heat and the heat comes from an oil heated radiator on its lowest setting.
It heats the oil up then cuts out only going back on when the oil cools down we have a water temperature of 12.7c ad an outside temperature of 7c
So they are quite warm and snug and better still feeding.
rgrds
Dave
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
- Messages
- 7,046
- Reaction score
- 7,241
- Location
- Water Valley, Alberta
- Showcase(s):
- 1
- Hardiness Zone
- 2a
- Country
Thanks Dave. Is that your friend in Ft. Saint John? They get pretty extreme temperatures up there. I'm not sure what the frost line is up there, but it's probably around 6 feet.
I have seen a number of koi, (Colleen's, for example) that seem to do well in ~32F waters. I've read where ice crystals forming on the gills of the fish is a real concern, yet we have fish that live long lives in near freezing temperatures.
I'm also thinking of that koi keeper in Norway that imported fish from Japan that did not survive. They don't get extreme temperatures there but the imported fish did not survive.
I'm going to try to find out where our local koi are raised next time I'm in town.
I have seen a number of koi, (Colleen's, for example) that seem to do well in ~32F waters. I've read where ice crystals forming on the gills of the fish is a real concern, yet we have fish that live long lives in near freezing temperatures.
I'm also thinking of that koi keeper in Norway that imported fish from Japan that did not survive. They don't get extreme temperatures there but the imported fish did not survive.
I'm going to try to find out where our local koi are raised next time I'm in town.
Yes Mitch the intence cold fried all but a small bit of their gills as the water temperature went back up they couldn't cope and died.
Strangely the goldfish were all fine , they must be some tough cookies eh ???
rgrds
Dave
Strangely the goldfish were all fine , they must be some tough cookies eh ???
rgrds
Dave