What Filters Do I Need?

[Mucky_Waters]

Then your liner goes on top of the pavers? Yes, but there is a protective layer of carpet and or underlay that covers the whole bottom and sides of the pond, including the built up pavers, and the liner lays on top of that.
Is your liner bare or is there stone on top of it? It is bare in the deep part of the pond, but I have some rocks and stones on the shelves.
Your turtle is little now. Does he or she try to dig holes? We've had that turtle for 3 years. Maybe 4 actually. I've never noticed him (or her) trying to dig holes anywhere.

Do you have a mold to make a lot of pavers in one batch? Did you make the mold yourself or buy it?
I was actually looking to buy some molds to make my own pavering stones, but everything I saw out there was too expensive for very few molds. I'm a stucco contractor by trade and at work one day I realized that the little plastic containers that the stucco color comes in were about the right size for paver stone molds. So at the end of the day I filled the empty containers with some of the left over stucco material. Once it had set it was easy to remove the stone from the mold by banging it upside down and the stone would fall right out. I started saving the empty color containers after that but it was clear that it would take me years to save a sufficient quantity to make worthwhile batches, so I contacted the container manufacturer and ordered a couple boxes of the empty plastic containers and I was in business. We now have enough containers (molds) to produce about 100 sq ft of those pavers in one batch.

 

[sburtchin]

The temperature dropped below freezing today. My goldfish are lined up side-by-side in a straight line at the bottom, all pointing the same direction and totally motionless.

The claim that koi cannot live very long at 34F is not based on any fact.
I think the majority of koi and goldfish fish losses during the winter are due to insufficient oxygenation levels, not the temperature of the water.
There are many myths about the water conditions in a pond during the winter. You may find the results interesting if you have an accurate thermometer probe placed at the bottom of your pond.

My first winter dieoff was due to low oxygen levels and bad water chemistry, I am sure. Since then I keep the pump running. The pipe empties directly into the pond from above and keeps a hole through the ice and for sure high oxygen levels. The rest of the water chemistry I can't be too sure. My pond is only 18" deep, so with ice covering all but a small hole, I think the water temperature has got to be almost exactly 32F. The discussion I read claimed that the cold temperatures weakened the koi's immune system leaving them vulnerable to a specific disease. In my experience though, small koi have survived many weeks covered with ice.

 

[sburtchin]

We've had that turtle for 3 years. Maybe 4 actually. I've never noticed him (or her) trying to dig holes anywhere.

I think the native turtles in Ohio dig tunnels or hide out in deep water to avoid freezing. Where does your turtle spend the winter?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I think the native turtles in Ohio dig tunnels or hide out in deep water to avoid freezing. Where does your turtle spend the winter?

He moves around a bit, but most of the time he just curls up in some warm corner somewhere on the bottom of the pond.
I can't speak for all types of slider turtles, but wild Western painted turtles like mine don't burrow into the mud in the winter, they just lay on the bottom most of the time and actually move around from time to time, albeit very slowly.
I've observed them in natural ponds under clear ice.

 

[sburtchin]

Please if anyone has an opinion on the size and shape of my deep water area as expanded and explained in post #25 - all opinions positive or negative are greatly appreciated. With so much of that discussion already in this thread, I am not sure it would be fruitful at this point for me to branch that discussion into a new thread. Maybe one of the moderators could split this into two separate threads (post #12 thru this post). "Is My 1000 gal Pond Big Enough for Koi?" would be an appropriate title.

 

[sburtchin]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread where we left off at post #8, from what I have read so far, a low maintenance high capacity filter system has to have at least 3 separate stages, the first of which has to remove the bulk of the waste and other debris without getting plugged-up quickly. The second stage should be a biological filter to convert harmful chemicals (which may be skipped if the fish load is low), and the third stage is a filter to remove fine particles.

For the first stage, it seems that most of the dedicated koi ponders have opted for the vortex filter. Some have large settlement chambers where the water enters at some point and exits somewhere else. For someone with a lot of space, I can see where a sufficiently big SC should get the job done. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wonder if the water finds its own path in a SC and most of the rest of the volume ends up being almost still water? Given that, am I correct in assuming that a vortex filter is superior to a plain SC of equal volume?

The other type filter that seems to be popular for the first stage is the sieve. The ones I have read about look like there is a lot of head loss. Are there sieve filter designs that do not have much head loss?

 

[Lisak1]

In looking at the shape of your pond I would be concerned about dead space. You want your filter and your skimmer to be opposite each other, which you can do, but then you have that third "point" where water will not circulate as well. If you just round that side out, you can eliminate the potential for a problem.

 

[sburtchin]

In looking at the shape of your pond I would be concerned about dead space. You want your filter and your skimmer to be opposite each other, which you can do, but then you have that third "point" where water will not circulate as well. If you just round that side out, you can eliminate the potential for a problem.

What if I add a carefully placed TPR pointing in the direction shown (below), or an underwater baffle to divert some of the water coming in from the stream?

Now is probably a good time to fill in some details of my plans. The double green line would be the plant shelf that goes around the perimeter of the pond and the blue line is the water's edge. The bottom profile as shown is explained in post #25. The fish are permitted to swim upstream until they reach a SS fence that prevents them from going where they don't belong. The littlest fish may go anywhere at their own peril. I anticipate their instincts will guide them to safety. Turtles would be free to go wherever they choose.

 

[Lisak1]

TPR? Not sure what that is, but some people install jets to create water flow in potential dead spots.

 

[addy1]

@Lisak1 A tpr is a type of jet to create flow.

Tangential Pond Return [TPR]
TPR's introduce water back into the system on an angle and help the whole system function better as particulate is channeled to the bottom drain

 

[sissy]

causes a little swirl in the pond.If you look at ponddigger sight he shows them .But bad thing is plants swirl around and get pushed to the skimmer .He did them on a pond build .

 

[Mucky_Waters]

What if I add a carefully placed TPR pointing in the direction shown (below), or an underwater baffle to divert some of the water coming in from the stream?

View attachment 90168

The TRP, BOTTOM DRAIN AND SKIMMER are great, but I wouldn't bother with the PREVAILING WIND, it's probably overkill in a pond that size.

 

[sburtchin]

But bad thing is plants swirl around and get pushed to the skimmer

Yikes! I didn't want to braid my pond lily stems. I may have to rely on fish power to help stir things up.

I wouldn't bother with the PREVAILING WIND, it's probably overkill in a pond that size.

Thanks for the tip. I thought it might be a factor in the placement of the skimmer. Factor or not, the location as shown is my only unobtrusive option without moving it even closer to where the stream enters. I thought I would incorporate an overflow at the back of the skimmer to vent excess pond water.

I guess most ponders like the vortex filters to settle out most of the pond waste? What if the bottom drain and skimmer emptied into a long deep trough. It could be made shorter by putting in baffles to make the flow fold back on itself. I haven't seen talk about this design for a settlement chamber. I have seen some rectangular tanks or accessory ponds filled with plants, but that's not quite what I'm getting at. I think those have to be cleaned periodically. It could be filled with water lettuce. An aggressive crop like celery could be suspended above it. When the celery gets pulled for consumption, all the crap that sunk to the bottom would be trapped in a tangled mass of roots. I'm just speculating that it could go many years without ever being cleaned beyond removing excess plants. Has anyone tried filtering their water this way?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade, but It seems that you are over-engineering this pond. Entirely unnecessary effort.

 

[sburtchin]

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade, but It seems that you are over-engineering this pond. Entirely unnecessary effort.

If you are speaking of the 3D model in AutoCAD, I totally agree. That was created only as a learning experience and to maintain my skill set as an engineer. For all practical purposes, as far as the build is concerned, a hand sketch of the layout and hand sketches of a few cross sections would be entirely sufficient IMO. Even my rough approximation of the volume earlier in this thread, as convoluted as it is, was off by less than 10%. Hope I didn't leave too many of you scratching your heads.

If you think I am over-engineering this in any other way, please elaborate. Thanks.