We construct filters out of plastic - is wood an option?

whiskey

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Hi all whiskey would like to pose a question, we make filters out of glass, plastic, perspecs and brick, what are the reasons why more diy filters have not been made from timber. Reason i ask is, long box shape filter used for koi , such as, teich/ kokney [ photo attactched] could easily have been made from timber 1] what are the draw backs. To me sealing the timber or linning the timber is easy. Is there reasons why?
 

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HARO

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Terry; You may be on to something here. With modern materials such as EPDM and fibreglass, a wooden filter box could be made water-tight, and lead a long and useful life! I've always shied away from wood around the pond because I feared leakage problems, but you have a point. John
 

whiskey

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Was toying with the idea of ...sieve to uv onto foam media t/m/f [ three sections] onto media rock to air pump to return to pond, making 7 sections in all. would sell both fishmates on ebay in spring but would keep bio filter filter running from both skimmers as working fine. gone off the idea of pressure filters as you can not see whats happening, etc...just wondering what would be the best set up ie sieve,uv etc.......WOULD WELCOME ALL IDEAS FROM ALL....GOOD AND BAD just trying to make an all in one filter to handle either 9000/3500/3000/1200 pump.Do have a range of pumps to choose from. Got 3000 running the bio filter at present.
 

fishin4cars

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with some of the new products that are now starting to show up building out of wood should be getting easier and easier. they now make a spray on rubberized coating that can be applied to cement, wood, metal, etc that makes them all water tight. The biggest issues in the past was getting a seal that would stay sealed for a length of time. Even now they make fiberglass resigns that can coat wood that is far easier to use than what we had to work with 5-10 years ago. seeing your skills I think it's very possible!
 

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I believe the product you mentioned is produced by Hecht Rubber Corp., if anyone wants to pursue it further. John
 
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from_lemon5.jpg


I built this pond to be an up flow gravel filter. Pressure treated 4x4s, plywood inside, all on concrete slab, lined with EPDM. The pond in front of the wood pond was made with concrete block.

When I disassembled the wood pond after about 5 years the plywood had some pretty serious rot at the base. This was in CA, very little rain.

It may have just been my construction methods but the concrete block was easier and cheaper to build. I had expected the opposite to be true. Since then I haven't considered using wood again.

I've always found brush on products, fiberglass, rubber type things, to be much more expensive than liner, but it's been a few decades since I last checked. I would always expect a liner to out perform any of those products, especially if applied to wood since it can move a lot. And liner is of course easier to install.
 

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I wonder how the new composite wood would work .I know it would be more expensive but the outside would not need the mantinience that real would does .They have been coming down in price for it .I used retaing wall block all around my pond and just built up the sides where I put the filter tanks ,but I still put a liner inside just incase the tank leaks the water will go back in the pond .Better safe than sorry
 

whiskey

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hi waterbug pleased you replied to this thread ,as read many a thread from you and find your knowledge of fishcraft rewarding and always anwsering questions fully in my opinon. now answer me this please , i plan to build a long inline filter to incorporate the following.....pump feed / gravity return. starting at...inlets onto sieve...from sieve onto brushes...from brushes onto 3 blocks of foam media[ t/m/f]....from there onto plastic media onto media rock and finally an air pump before returning to pond. my old bio filter will be used to service the skimmer top/bottom pond as working fine. As i said earlier, gone off idea of pressurised filters as cannot see how things are behaving inside and cleaning is hit and miss. would like yours and anyone else reading this thread for their imput.THIS NEW FILTER ON 24/7. Hi sissy yes with modern glues almost anythink is possible you could infact cover spread with mastic the timber, would not even get damp, by firstly appling sealant, once dry apply mastic, make sure it aqua sealant...dont need sick or dead fish.
 

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sieve would need to go first i think, as its meant to get most of the muck before it goes to the next stage, only trouble if using submersible pumps the pooh gets mushed up before it gets to the sieve, would work much better with an external pump
 

whiskey

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hi stroppy using external would be good, low on power use to, but i will be using my trusty lotus olympus 9000 litre with a divert tap for wheel, this pump handles waste up to 7mm [found photo] with no problems. Set up....i feel i got it right ...what do you think? just thought i have central heating pump, works well with 1 1/2" plastic. could run it from bottom pond just for filter only.....always thinking! :idea:
 

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Sissy, I've often wondered about using composite wood inside a pond, mainly as a false bottom. I did use Trex many years ago for a deck and it bends a lot more than wood, like taffy. So I think it would depend on the specific brand of composite and also how it was used like if something else provided the structure.

Whiskey, unfortunately my heart just isn't into filters any more. There was a time when I was obsessed, but over time designs and ideas get whittled down and they stop holding much interest. The time of obsession was a fun time, endless possibilities, great fun, lots to learn. I did learn filters have to match the pond and purpose of the pond. There's a surprising amount of subtleties with filters, they rarely act as expected. Really difficult subject to discuss in a helpful way. I think a person just has to learn by doing.

Zen
In general I think most filters are built purely for the fun of building, though few own up to that. There's a thinking that just out of reach is the perfect filter. For example, if a filter collects junk the builder is very happy, the filter works. But an unbiased look into the pond will see lots more junk settled on the pond bottom. The subject can't really be discussed because the builder often gets very defensive, like the filter is their child. The importance of the filter has little to do with the pond and everything to do with a hobby. It's rarely harmful because the filter was never actually needed in the first place. On the other hand, talk to a fish farmer or someone with a serious fish load that absolutely needs proper filtering and they will be quick to study results, adjust and scrap filters. They have no choice.

My point to that little story is that to me is the most important thing about filters is that they can mislead you. Objectivity is the most important component. I don't think a person can really start out objective, you have to have at least some set backs. But I think the faster objectivity grows in importance the faster the filter improves.

Here's some things that popped into my head about your design.
I don't really understand your entire design so these comments might make little sense. Maybe other things were discussed in other thread I didn't read.

Pre Chopping
Ditto what Stroppy said (but it sounded to me like the sieve was first). I didn't understand the distinction made between an external and submersible pumps. Both can be used to get water into a filter without waste first having to go thru the pump and chopped up. The pump goes at the end of filters, or at least after whatever removes the big stuff, and pumps back into the pond which over flows into the filters. The over flow can be bottom drain or an overflow pipe that goes to the bottom of the pond, like a vacuum cleaner. Pre chopping makes filters much less effective. That's an immutable rule in filters. IMO any mechanical (non bio) filter that allowed stuff to go through a pump first would not be a serious design.

Brushes
I've always loved the idea of brushes, they're just cool looking, easy to clean. I assume you're using them to settle out debris. But are brushes effective? Certainly stuff will settle, but how much. If 70, 80, 90% of stuff is still settling inside the pond that stuff still has to be removed. If you have a system for removing that stuff why not let all the stuff settle there. At least every pond I've seen that used brushes that's what I saw, a lot of stuff settled in the pond. Normally that's why I was there, to vacuum the pond.

This is a perfect example of a filter being misleading. The point missed often is whether stuff settles before ever getting to the brushes.

It is possible to design a system which stops stuff from settling inside the pond, lots of water movement. I've only seen that done in high end Koi ponds, fish farm type deals, serious fish loads and I can't remember any of them using brushes. Seems like if they were going to all the trouble to stop stuff settling in the pond that they used higher end filters to catch it. Not sure what that means, just that's what I saw. It didn't lead me to think brushes were overly effective at any rate.

Manufactured filters have a problem in that they're limited by size. So brushes are used to try and slow down water. When making a filter you don't have the size limit, there are better options. Brushes are super cool to me though. Their shape, the way they feel, they seem like a forest of trees. Maybe that's why manufacturers use them. There's 2 ways to sell filters. One is based on scientific data on their effectiveness. The other is appealing directly to first time buyers and their preconceived notions.

Media
I didn't follow the foam, plastic, rock design...is that all for ammonia conversion? For that I prefer media that is cleaned 24/7, like fluidized bed or trickle tower. Trickle towers are easier and cheaper to build and proven to work much better.

For learning and having fun building filters, or tight spaces, I don't think you can beat a fluidized bed. Endless possible shapes, you get to see media flying around and they're proven to work better than submerged media because the media stays clean 24/7.

My thoughts are only relevant to the exact type of pond I like to run and my experience may have nothing to do with your type of pond. I do look forward to reading about your experience. I get nostalgia sometimes for the days of dreaming about the next perfect filter. On the other hand I sleep better now.
 

whiskey

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hi thanks for reply spent all night on you-tube fluildized/trickle towers and watching tv [children in need show] raising money for the less fortunate, make you feel very humble and empty pockets. its 23.30 here in the uk....already raised 20 million pounds, even in a recession.......wonderfull. will address this thread later, my revamp so far [ see photos ] being ive got two pond tiered, i take it i rough drawing is correct with two bottom drains to sieve to media to pump to outlets. funny how manufactors always show pump to filter, filter to outlet. No wonder my old pump looked bedraggled.
 

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whiskey

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hi guys found a product that completely seals timber, its called plasti dip. I phoned there office and was told to use their undercoat first followed by two to three coats. It coats a plastic film onto most surfaces. Still feel stainless out classes all other material, but there is now a way to permantly seal timber for water construction but it still has limition ,on bends or circular shape, so alright on straight box designs.
WATERBUG hey youve open my eyes to a world of new ideas, like the trickle towers but sadly the cost of house media alone is way over my budget, but would this work with normal media?...i doubt it.
Will though next year be installing two bottom drains plus making pools deeper and installing home made sieve,
so this should keep me out of the wife feet, but both agree this is the way to go, to improve quaility of fish life.
You mention you once had a gravel bed filter, i built one back in the 70 s using builders pipework, feed from bottom draining into next chamber via top of pipe, with a bottom drain in each chamber, for back wash . worked great ...thanks for you import on this thread
 
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Whiskey, "house media" is pretty expensive and used in a Bakki Shower filter, which is a trickle tower, but just one type. Bakki Showers are kind of the epitome of trickle tower design, but not the standard. In general Bakki is used for really high flow rates. However, a Bakki can be scaled down or TT scaled up so both can handle the same flow rates, with the only difference being the size of the filters.

For regular backyard hobbyist ponds I don't think Bacteria House Media is that great a choice. It can take some effort to make sure the media stays clean and hobbyist in general aren't into that effort long term. So the media clogs and full use is lost.

I think the traditional trickle tower is a better choice. No real need to worry about keeping it clean. Media can be pretty much anything, lava rock is the most common media, but any kind of rock could be used or plastic from curlers to army men.
 

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