Ways to avoid your pond from emptying

[koikeepr]

right, the doc said he would never get an external pump or BD for fear of emptying the pond. And what Joann and I are arguing that is a properly set up gravity fed BD or external pump will not empty the pond. Period.

I agree with Joann 100% in that people without BD's have some odd opinion of them and don't quite understand them or how they are set up to function.

 

[newday3000]

Here's my view on BD's. I didn't consider one for the small pond or the new one. my reasons below.

1. Where I live ground frost is deep and I worry that piping underground could split, crack, leak
2. I have liner pond which I paid good money for and put in a liner protector and made sure nothing was going to puncture it. so it's seems odd to me to then cut a hole in the bottom and hope my seal lasts the 25 years that my liner is guaranteed to last.
3. The cheapest, and easiest to maintain system is anything I can easily fix, or replace and improve without any digging.
4. It's not lack of understanding it seems like more effort and risk than any benefit I might get from it.
5. I have read many posts of nightmare repair work on BD's. I dont' have any time to drain and digout or fix it.
6. I like simple designs.

I'm sure they work once installed but IMHO I can get the same results with an above the water line filter solution, with less risk and cost.

 

[CliffandJoann]

Yes pondkeeper, and thanks for claryfing what doc Dave said.

I agree everyone is so worried about a leak, installed properly
it won't leak. Just the same as a swimming pool, the BD's don't leak,
but noone seems to make that a major concern, as they do with a pond.

To us, it is the single most important thing you can do for your fish, your pond
and the ease of maintenance... no vacumming, no chemicals, no annual
emptying the pond to clean it out and stressing the fish. The water is constantly
being cleaned, and the fish waste constantly removed from the pond 24/7..

 

[CliffandJoann]

ok newsday, it's your pond and your decision.

However, maintaining a 3000 gallon pond is a lot more challenging
than maintaining a 580 gallon pond.
How long have you had your 580
gallon pond?

 

[koikeepr]

I agree Joann. It's made a world of difference in my pond. Not only is a bottom drain used in virtually every underground pool, but most every aquarium in the world uses drains to keep theie tanks clean.

Granted, for a small pond it may not be worthwhile (tho I think it still would be), but as far as I'm concerned if anyone has anything 1,000+ gallons it's a plus. I've never had a single spec on my pond floor since I installed my BD. My maintenance has been reduced dramatically. No scooping, netting and all that other jazz.

newday, pvc piping does not split and crack in the cold--it's used in homes and under my crawlspace is nothing more than a web of PVC. Yes, you do have to put a small hole in your pond. Use some PL roofing sealant and you've got 25+ years of service. If it's good enough to keep a roof leak free, it's good enough for my pond.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of using a BD or anything else. I just know what my ponds have been like to care for without one and with one, and it's no contest. I speak from experience of having had both situations. I, too, was woozy about putting a hole in a perfectly good liner. Nonetheless I grabbed the knife and plunged the hole in. Best hole I ever put in.

To each his own.

 

[DrDave]

Ok, I will try and cover this one more time. I accept that your external pump is gravity fed. That said, if it is a closed system, it will suck the pond dry because once it starts, gravity is no longer in control. Suction will pull every drop out until it gets a gasp of air.

If you have a submersible pump in those settling chambers then gravity prevails. Once the pond reaches the level of the pump then it will sit there and cavitate and the pond will be fine.

Either way, the pumps get fried if left alone with no water.

A float switch is the only way to protect the pump or if used correctly, the pond level.

 

[koikeepr]

Sounds like we'll all have to agree to disagree. No harm, no foul.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Based on CJ's drawing I do beleive those are submersable pumps in the last chamber. An inline pump attached to a bottom drain would indeed suck the pond dry regardless of what level the pump was at.

 

[DrDave]

Finally someone who understands basic plumbing and has some understanding of Physics.

Thank you!

 

[CliffandJoann]

Dave, You're on the wrong track.
The original question was about the pond emptying out from a pump, right? ... and I stated
that our pond can not empty out from a pump, because it is gravity fed system.
The pumps can not empty out the pond, as your pump did, as ours are submergable pumps housed in the filter tubs.

Firstly, what is closed, about a open tub filter system?
Pushing aside your comment about the pump running dry,
lets get back to the pond emptying.

Again,the pond can only empty down to the level of the output tube
from the bottom drain, which in our case is only about 6" of water.

You changed directions mentioning the pump frying...This can happen if
the water goes down below the outlet of the bottom drain,(which in my case is-- if the water in the pond drops 6" -- then
it stops feeding the tubs) then the pumps will pump the water out of the tubs and the pumps will be dry and then they can fry...

however, the original topic was ways to prevent your pond from emptying, not frying your pumps..

 

[CliffandJoann]

Finally someone who understands basic plumbing and has some understanding of Physics.

Well really Doc Dave, you're the one that doesn't understand basic plumbing and Physics.
Where have I said that I have a inline pump attached to my bottom drain?
I gave you drawings and the link to my website ponds and plans diagrams, and you still don't get it?

If you need more visual aids, you'll have to wait until mid May when we begin our pond tours.

The ancient Egypitians used the theory of water seeking it's own level, 3000 year ago,
do you need more proof?

 

[Mrshkoiluver]

Think of a homemade level. An airline tubing with water in it. Make a U and the water will be at level no matter what side is up higher. Of course it will drain if one side drops lower than the other. If this makes any sense to anyone.

 

[CliffandJoann]

Absolutely Mrskoiluver, makes sense to me. We used the water tube method
when we built our pond, and added on to our existing pond, and when we connected
the bio pond we used the tube as well...and all this without a Physics degree...:banana:

However, we do know how to read diagrams, follow directions, and use common sense.
We also know that there are many ways to built an maintain a healthy pond. Our way is not the only way...
I do enjoy sharing my pond knowledge with others that appreciate
getting advise before building a big pond that turns out to be a maintenance nightmare.

 

[newday3000]

LOL, I can see the BD drug is being pushed now. I'm not a fan of them. No plans to use one. KISS principle tells me don't cut a hole in the liner. I see the benefit to them but don't want the risk or extra cost.

I just don't accept they are superior or solve all possible problems, which is often how I see them presented, with no downside at all.

 

[koikeepr]

Let's not be dramatic. No drug is being pushed, and no one said anything about BD's being superior. What's been said by both sides is that there is more than one way to plumb a pond. There is an upside and downside to nearly every piece of equipment we have on our ponds, but each of us makes the choice to use them or not.

Heck, there are folks with "naturalized" ponds (as natural as a captured body of water can be) who have clear water, healthy fish and they scoff at all of us for having filtration of any kind or even feeding our fish.

I will never tell anyone what to do with their pond our how to plumb it. Except for rocks inside the pond, which I vehemently oppose--I can only make suggestions and it's every pond owners right to reject the idea or consider it.

There's a tiny bit of snippiness starting to emerge on this thread, so perhaps we've exhausted it and we have to agree to disagree, as I said earlier. Looks like we might need to move on...