Waterfalls and winter

[lindsayanng]

Hi there.. i'm not sure if i should have posted this in the newbie section or not.. but we JUST finished building a our pond.. I know, its DECEMBER.. but the people we ordered the liner from REALLY took a long time to get it to us, and then we had to wait for the rocks that we ordered.

ANYWAYS, i have been getting conflicting information from people regarding waterfalls in the winter. Some people said you can not keep them on in the winter, others said you can..

So i was wondering what your thoughts were.

We have a pond that is about 8ft wide by 6ft long and its about 3.5 feet deep in the deepest part.. The water fall is about 3 feet tall (from the ground) and is a straight drop down (no trickle like you usually see) its more like a cliff fall.

SO I was wondering, can i turn the pump on and let the water continue to circulate?

p.s. there are NO fish or plants in the pond yet. I just want the fall on because i think that it would look pretty in the winter with snow and stuff..

Thanks for your time..

 

[DrDave]

I think you will find that the running water will freeze and start to accumulate until it flows somewhere other than your pond. Eventually, you will run out of water and the pump will burn up.

 

[Fraxinus85]

hey thar! :icon_smile:you've been getting conflicting information because different people have different plumbing for their ponds; for instance, my pond also has a three foot cliff-like waterfall. however, it doesn't freeze during winter because 1) it doesn't get as cold here in redding as it does most other places, and 2) i have most of my plumbing underground. dr. dave is absolutely right, it is possible to run out of water and burn your pump; however, it sounds like your pond is quite a bit like mine-the waterfall is nice and steep so that it keeps the water moving, which raises the temperature of the water, keeps oxygen flowing, keeps the surface from completely freezing, and keeps my koi alive because it allows toxic gases to escape (ice keeps gases trapped in the water). because you don't have koi and plants yet, it wouldn't hurt anything at all to turn the water off. so honestly, you're safe this year either way you go, but once you have fish and plants, in my experience you gotta keep that water running! hope that helps!

 

[DrDave]

The one thing that's missing here is location, something the writer should have stated first. I know Redding gets cold (been there in the winter) but North Dakota gets colder.

So where are you..............???

 

[lindsayanng]

Oh my.. i'm sorry. i'm in Southern Connecticut - I think thats a ZONE 7 ??

Thats why my pond was 3ft deep.. The thing is, i WANTED my waterfall to run all winter because it looks nice. I forgot too, i thought you could see in the pics, but the hoses are just plastic bendable ones that are above ground.. Would that make a difference if the water is constantly flowing through it? I thought it would only freeze if the water was stopped in it..

 

[DrDave]

It all depends on how cold it gets. I remember a winter in ND where it was so cold, the water froze as fast as the firemen could spray it on a fire. They eventually had to use foam to put out the fire. When it was over, the base of the 2 story building had Ice 60 foot thick at the base forming a triangle to the top of the building. That closed Highway 10 and they had to detour traffic around the ice for weeks.

It helps to know how cold and where.

 

[Fraxinus85]

in my experience, pipes with water running through them have never frozen (as long as the water's being released somewhere-like out of a waterfall). but again, all my pipes are insulated. yours may be a different story, so take a look at this article on freezing pipes: http://www.weather.com/activities/homeandgarden/home/hometips/severeweather/pipefreeze_prevent.html. hope that helps!

 

[DrDave]

It's not the water in the pipes, it is when the water hits the cold air. Did you read what I said?

 

[Fraxinus85]

sure did! did you read the article i posted? :banana:

 

[DrCase]

i run my water fall all winter in arkansas,,,i just keep a eye out on the weather,,i do run it with some ice in the pond,,but i watch the weather closer,,,my pipes are not insulated,but they all will drain out when i pull the plug..and turn off the pump.. if you want to run the fall just do it..keep a eye on it when its going to stay below 32 for a few days in a row..turn it off if it gets to cold.

 

[DrDave]

sure did! did you read the article i posted? :banana:

Once again you missed the spirit of the response, so I will say it slow so you can get a grip on it.

The water once it leaves the pipe, in extreme cold weather, can freeze before it has a chance to return to the pond.
Read this several times.....

My concerns were, if this happens, that the water might be diverted away from the pond and it will eventually run out. If this happens the pump will burn up.
Now do you understand????

If you want to run it all year round to keep the pipes from freezing, I would plumb a return that goes directly back to the pond with PVC and make it as vertical as possible. This provides the pleasant sound of a waterfall without the catestrophic results.

If you want to take this further then please promise to pay for the damages that linsayanng will incurr by following your advice.

Notice I didn't put any childish dancing bananas with an intelligent response.

 

[Fraxinus85]

lindsayanng,
dave has a valid opinion, but here is where he is incorrect: he is afraid that when your water hits the cold air, it will freeze instantly, giving your water nowhere to go. however, the water that will be exiting your waterfall will be a few degrees warmer because it is moving, thereby eliminating dave's suggestion of freezing on contact, unless you are super cold (you rarely get that cold in zone 7). read the post i posted earlier again, please, and you will understand what i'm talking about. also, i apologize for dave's personal attacks-we're still working with him on that. :banana: hope that helps!

 

[Chef Dave]

Ah ... if I could interject a comment ... I understand that the waterfall is three feet tall and that there's a straight drop, but what about the VOLUME being pumped out?

Dr. Dave's point about the possibility of freezing water could be valid depending upon the VOLUME of water being pumped. There is after all, a huge difference between the amount of water pumped by a 250 gallon pump and the amount pumped by a 2000 gallon pump.

Less anyone take issue with this, be warned ... I'm holding an offset spatula!

:banana:

 

[DrDave]

Thank You!
I see there is at least one person here with a some Physics education.

For those who don't know, I am the "Subject Matter Expert" on Climate Control for a Dow 30 company...

I advise on $10M installations having to do with sub zero installations.

 

[lindsayanng]

Ok.. I understand BOTH arguement.. HOWEVER, the volume would be kind of high, but i might adjust it based of the noise it makes.. Right now we have a 3800gph pump (i think) its made for a bigger pond than what i have.. It gets cold here, but never cold enough for ANY water of mass that is more than a snowflake to freeze on contact with the air.. Maybe on contact with pavement, but even then it would need to be not a lot of water.

And I would also like to say that i would never not pay attention to my pond enough to have it be completely out of water from leaks... maybe if the pump was pumping ALL the water out of the pond that it pumps, sure, but thats not a leak, thats a catastrophe..

So my pond is in the front of my house, i come and go through out the day, and my husband works from home as a photographer and takes our dog out for pee breaks constantly.

So basically the point that i am taking from BOTH of you is that my pipes are unlikely to freeze unless it gets REALLY cold, and the volume of the water that is flowing through the falls will have effect, which makes sense to me (a trickle = ice, a fall = water) and finally, the oNLY way i can destroy my pump is if my entire pond emptied of water.