Waterfall is enough right?

[buckry]

So I've lost 2 fish in 24 hours, both were gasping for air at the surface. The first one I just waited it out and he died. The second I put into quarantine and put an extra aerator in for him. He died. Really fast too by the way, probably an hour.

Anyway, my pond is 3400g, with about 120sq ft of surface area. I've got 2 pumps pumping 3000gph into a central waterfall where half of it dumps over in a niagra falls sort of fall that is about 20" tall, and the other half falls onto some rocks in a small stream. Both create tons of turbulence, especially the niagra falls one, it's quite the torrent right there where it dumps back in.

Surely this is enough to keep the water oxygenated right? I'm really worried now that I'm going to lose a fish a day or something.

I hooked up my emergency pump and and putting that water into the waterfall as well, so I've got enough pumping to circulate the pond more than once an hour, but I hope that isn't required forever.

Does my pumping situation seem adequate, or did I create a fish killing machine here?

 

[fishin4cars]

Sounds like the aeration should be at least adequate. Knowing the fish are still new I would suspect possibly gill flukes.But First things first. What are all the water parameters? That's the first thing to check and with a new pond it really needs to be checked at least once a week if not more. If it is gill flukes, (You'll need someone to view under a microscope a clipping from a living or dieing fishes gills.) It probably came in with new fish. this is why quaranteening is very important any time your buying new fish. All fish carry parasites, it's when they stress that they most likely show up. Stress from shipping, new pond cycling, different water conditions, etc.
Additional air will not hurt anything, the water can only get so saturated and that's it. Adding Rock salt might help but determining the exact problem is first in order. 1st check water, 2nd find someone that can check the fish with a microscope. Third be prepared to take action as needed.

 

[sissy]

Do you still have your filters in the pond as that could be making the water toxic .In pond filters never work .The pumps should be enough but if those filters are depleting the oxygen or putting toxins in the water they are doing it at night .Do you have plants in there yet because plants use up oxygen at night .I think you really need a filter outside the pond that can take the load .Koi really produce a lot of waste matter .Get quilt batting and set up a makeshift filter to clean the water a laundry basket in the middle of your pond sitting out of the water with a hose from your pump running into it .Remember if it is hot out that depletes oxygen too .

 

[koiguy1969]

i keep alot more fish in alot less water with only i waterfall for filtration, aeration, and circultation. 1000gph thru the filter and 2150 just pumped into the top of filter and the falls for circulation and mechanical filtration from a 10 gal prefilter. sounds like a fish problem not a water one.

 

[buckry]

Well, as I had a fish die last night and a sick fish tonight I've test 4 times in the last 24 hours. 3 chemical tests and 1 of those paper strips. All 4 were the same, and all 4 were perfect. Oxygen is the only thing I cannot test for. I asked about that a while ago and it seems O2 tests are expensive and no one said they bothered testing.

Ok, thanks Koiguy, my gut is telling me the same thing, but this situation is impossible, I've never second guessed myself so much in my life.

Don't know about the plants depleting oxygen, my hyacinths are in great shape but everything else is aking its sweet time to start growing. Lilies are pathetic, the cattails I brought home are all dead, got some forget me nots that are basiically just algae catchers at this point.

And this is the first I've heard of my inpond filters sucking oxygen from the water and/or putting toxins into the water. Not sure how worried I am about that to be honest, I mean, everyone has at least a prefilter in the water, why would my slightly bigger filter suck oxygen out of the water? Gonna have to google that one, but I doubt I'll change the filters, especially now that they have built up their bio load and have cleaned my water to 90% clear.

Wait, what do you mean by toxic? Ammonia? Nitrates? Any other toxins that I should be worried about?

 

[sissy]

even bird droppings I have seen can kill fish .You have you air conditioner unit near the pond is it leaking freon .

 

[sissy]

You also put in that new bridge could something be leeching from that .Though you have said you have not gotten ran lately any thing you have changed can cause so many different things .On you air unit there may be a gauge that shows your freon going through the unit .I have one and it looks almost like water in the clear glass gauge .If you have one it may tell you something .Some older units don't come with them and some people just don't want to pay the 15 dollars for one

 

[buckry]

My kit definitely does not test for freon, so that's a great example of other toxins, but freon is a gas, it's not going into my pond.

Yeah, the bridge thing though is a possibility. No rain, but I've been doing at least 15 minutes of sprinling each day for my new grass, so the bridge is getting sprinkled on.

Not sure why it this would affect so few of the fish, but it's defintely possible. I think I'm going to stop sprinkling for a few days though.

 

[sissy]

Also did you clean all your plants before they entered the pond .My neighbor brought a plant home and stuck it in her pond and then 2 days later she called me in a panic and we took it out and put a basket of quilt batting in and ran her pump hose to it .But it killed 2 of her fish and all i could figure was the plant .She has never done that again .Yes freon is a gas but heavy air and heat can make it settle .I had my older unit in NJ leak and it killed every plant in the garden around it .

 

[sissy]

You can help the quilt batting really clean by soaking it in peroxide and putting it in to clean .Plants that die in a pond mean something is wrong somewhere .

 

[Waterbug]

O2 levels is the last thing I would worry about in that size pond, with that fish load and that water movement. If you want to track down the cause you first tick off the stuff that's easy to guess or test. You've ticked off ammonia and nitrite, and O2 has to be OK. I assume pH buffer is good?

Next logical step is what Larkin said, parasites. Here's video by Dr Johnson. Can't beat free advice from someone with actual training. He also has some other videos on sick fish on his site.

As a side note...the crashing of giant waterfalls don't add as much O2 as people think. If you sent that same pump output into the pond to stir the water you would have higher O2 levels in the water. O2 is a surface gas exchange thing, not a crashing water thing. However your O2 levels for your pond are fine.

 

[buckry]

Thanks so much waterbug that again makes me feel a lot better.

 

[ididntdoit99]

And this is the first I've heard of my inpond filters sucking oxygen from the water and/or putting toxins into the water. Not sure how worried I am

Me too! Never heard of such a thing, and can't for the life of me figure out how a filter in a pond, and a fliter out of the pond would be any different, if a filter releases toxins into the water, water is flowing through the filter even when its out of the pond. Sissy, help me make sense of this.

 

[crsublette]

I wouldn't get ahead of myself. Just get a quarantine tank setup, go through the process to quarantine the fish, then add them to the water.

For the rest of the pond, make sure ya are get zero water chemistry fluctuations. It might be something simple such as a slight pH fluctuation (test pH in the morning and late afternoon) that is making the fish susceptible to attack.

If ya just want to make sure, then get advice from who you trust about whole pond treatments, be careful, and follow the directions to the 'T'.

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Sounds like water chemistry is attacking your fish's immunity so that it becomes susceptible to attack by the bad stuffs or the fish scraped them self thus allowing entry for the bad stuffs.

When doing tests, I always have at least 2 different brands. One brand is the API freshwater test kit, which has all of them (except KH and GH). Second brand is usually just some generic brand I can get. I like the electronic pH testers with +/-.05 accuracy (if ya can find a reliable one) since ya don't have to guess on a color chart. A .3~.5 pH fluctuation, from morning and mid afternoon, within 24 hours also weakens fish immune system.

If it is toxins, then carbon satchels and slow water changes will help control these; since most toxins must be chemically bound or physically expelled by water change or carbon or something else.

As for everything such as parasites/disease/bacteria, I'd defer to someone that knows better like Doc Johnson.

My understanding is that parasites/disease/bacteria is always present in ponds due to birds, critters, plants, and everything that comes into contact with water. All depends on the fish's immune system or if the fish is hurting them self on sharp edges that gives an entry point for the bad stuff.

I alway quarantine my fish in a 80 gallon stock tank with a small aerator and a trickle tower fountain. I first aged the QT tank water a bit to make sure all the water parameters and bacteria colonies were good then put my fish in there along with some parasite and fungal killing treatments. Depending on what ya use, the quaratine period is anywhere from 10 to 21 days or maybe more.

Ya can quarantine your plants with a heavy dosage of potassium permanganate (PP) in a quarantine tank, but make sure ya fully understand PP before ya use it since even a small mismeasurement can cause some scary bad reactions. Better to use PP for plants rather than fish. Fish can tolerate PP in very very small dosages, but ya gotta be extremely careful and know exactly water gallons and everything else. If ya do a heavy enough PP dosage, then it will kill snails, eggs, parasites, everything that is on your plant, but this is more of a PP dip. Whole process just takes one or few hours depending on how much reagants are present for the PP to oxidize. However, if ya do it for too long, then ya will kill your plants also. I have heard of major aquatic plant farmers doing this quarantine process prior to distributing their plants to stores. There are safer routes, other treatments, to quarantine plants, but I am told PP is the most effective and cheapest.

 

[HARO]

And above all else, take ALL advice with a grain of salt. Too many folks log on as self-admitted "total noobs", and a week later are handing out advice as if they had a degree in veterinary medicine, In the words of the immortal Archie Bunker, "Not knowin' nothin' about the subject never stopped me from bein' no expert before"!!! :twocents:
John