Water pH and Peat Moss

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I have a tilapia in my pond. He's wayyyyy hardy! Around here they live in just about any kind of water you can find.

I didn't realize he was from the cichlid family. Why isn't he controlling my platys! Lol!

Thanks for the info.
 
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Charles,
Thanks so much for all the good info! I may have an alkalinity problem because my ph fluctuates between 8.2 in the morning to 8.8 or higher at night. I've noticed this pretty recently after temperatures started rising. I will also look into the iron products you recommend. Thanks again!
 

crsublette

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Charles,
Thanks so much for all the good info! I may have an alkalinity problem because my ph fluctuates between 8.2 in the morning to 8.8 or higher at night. I've noticed this pretty recently after temperatures started rising. I will also look into the iron products you recommend. Thanks again!


Actually, I think your pH is border line on being quite fine, even with the fluctuation. Just keep an eye on it, be a little paranoid, and pay attention to your ammonia test while making sure there is no ammonia or make sure your ammonia test stays below 0.30ppm. Although, the pH is on the high side that can give your Water Hyacinth and other plants nutrient issues, which this is addressed in post#6 in the context of iron.


The 12~24 hour fluctations mainly become dangerous to fish's health when the fluctuation jumps between brackets, such as from 7.8~8.8 or 7.3~8.4 or 6.8~8.3. The 7.8~8.8 is the least harmful although still stressful to fish. The 7.3~8.4 fluctuation is harmful to fish except the last fluctuation of 6.7~8.3 is actually the most deadly to the fish, especially if there is any registerable ammonia present in the water. These are just some examples to show when the fluctuations can be harmful and it happens in many different ranges.
 

crsublette

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There are two commonly used pH test kits: 1) paper strips ; 2) liquid drops in a vial. If your pH test kit are the paper strips, then be aware it is only accurate within a +/- 0.3 variance, which makes them quite inaccurate. Paper strip test kits are more used to serve as a "fire alarm", that is it only signals there might be a fire. The "fire alarm" can definitely be wrong or it can be correct except it does not give a good accurate indicator on the fire. Paper strip test kits are quite fast, in and out, 5 second or so, quick indicators to tell you if the "alarm" is triggered. If there is a possibility of concern due to the paper strips "alarming" reading, then the liquid drops in a vial pH test kit is used. The liquid pH test kit has an accuracy of around +/- 0.1~0.2, which makes it a much better test and should only take about a minute or so to conduct.


If you are using a liquid pH test kit, then this would mean your water actually is, while including the variance...

Morning = 8.1~8.3 (or 8.0~8.4)

Evening = 8.7~8.9 (or 8.6~9.0).


Your pH fluctuation might not even be due to alkalinity.



** Alkalinity (above 7 dKH or above 125ppm) helps to stop your water's pH from falling below 8.3~8.4.

** Free Calcium helps to stop your water's pH from rising above 8.3~8.4. The volume of free calcium required depends on many variables such as plants, contanimants, etc, so this is not easy to pin point.


** Quick asterisk. There are many different compounds in water that determine its pH buffering abilities. This context of alkalinity and calcium assumes your water is not heavy in phosphorous due to underground aquifers with heavy phosphate rock formations or the water comes from springs or streams running down a mountain that is heavy in phosphate. The one area I know of that this might be an issue for is for some people who live in North Carolina.

However, most folk's ponds are not heavy in phosphorous. Most folk's pond water is more heavy in carbonates, such as what is created due to living aquatic organisms expelling carbon dioxide including algae and fish, etc.




With a morning pH of 8.1~8.3, then this tells me your alkalinity might need a little boost, except not much at all. This is why sharing the KH test kit values, as described in post#13 of a pH & KH thread, is quite informative.

With an evening pH of 8.7~8.9, the this tells me you have little free calcium available in your water, which is solve by using calcium chloride as described in the Clacium Chloride to lower PH thread.



Without knowing your KH values and assuming your pH test is correct, then...

Personally, due to your pH fluctuation, I think your water's alkalinity is not low enough to be too concerned about just yet, but you still need to know the KH value, keep an eye on it, and maybe toss in a significant amount of a calcium carbonate product, such as oyster shells, in an area of the pond where there is moving water, a stream floor, a bog, base of a waterfall or fountain, etc.

There are many good ideas of how to integrate the above mentioned product in the threads of this chemistry sub-forum. Remember though, oyster shells stop dissolving at around 8.3pH; although, if the pH ever dips lower, then a small amount absolutely will be released into the water. However, if money is a problem, then just skip it; calcium carbonate or aragonite or crushed coral or other formations of this product is just a good preventative product to use to help ensure your water is healthy.

Although, free calcium levels might be too low.

Your source water likely does not have enough free calcium to satisfy your pond's demands. Simply follow the instructions about calcium chloride, as mentioned above, and then wait a day or so, test again... If the 8.7~8.9 value has not droped down to around 8.4, then repeat this process 2 more times and spaced out between each dosage... If after the 3rd dosage and still no change, then do not dose anymore and be sure your liquid pH test kit has not gone "bad" due to passing the expiration date. If you are positive your pH test kit is correct, then I think the calcium is not low enough to be concerned about just yet, but keep an eye on it.

These are just the recommendations that I personally would do if it were my pond.

Absolutely nothing about these products will harm your fish nor plants as long as they're used in moderation as mentioned above.



To reiterate... I think your pH is border line on being quite fine, even with the fluctuation. Just keep an eye on it and pay attention to your ammonia test while making sure there is no ammonia or your ammonia test stays below 0.30ppm.
 
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Charles, our water source is 100% well based. It comes from the ground. So, I'm assuming from what you say that it could be high in phospherous. I'm in Southern California, high desert. Our water quality report did not include phosphorous or phosphate levels. What would be the impact of phosphorous on all of this? Also, I looked around for EDDHA and some others have reported problems with the "blood red" color of the stuff. One person on another forum stated that the first time you use EDDHA will be the last time you see your fish.
 
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After I complained here about my water hyacinths they decided to go crazy with blooms. Lol! Yesterday I had 13 blooming today I have 15! Love it!

Besides all the talk on water, are you sure your fish aren't nibbling the roots? I had that problem with my first batch. I didn't think I did because they had really LONG black roots, but Waterbug mentioned to look for the new white roots, they were none. That's when I figured out what was going on.

I now have them netted and after a few months of the netting they seem to have taken off. Fingers crossed.

We are talking about the a plant known as one of the worst weeds in the world. Its used to clean water, I some how can't figure out why its so picky about growing in ponds, when Disney world uses it to clean up its waste water. Lol!
 

crsublette

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2) Charles, our water source is 100% well based. It comes from the ground. So, I'm assuming from what you say that it could be high in phospherous. I'm in Southern California, high desert. Our water quality report did not include phosphorous or phosphate levels. What would be the impact of phosphorous on all of this? 1) Also, I looked around for EDDHA and some others have reported problems with the "blood red" color of the stuff. One person on another forum stated that the first time you use EDDHA will be the last time you see your fish.

1) Also, I looked around for EDDHA and some others have reported problems with the "blood red" color of the stuff. One person on another forum stated that the first time you use EDDHA will be the last time you see your fish.


It would be good to read Dr. Storey's article on iron... Understanding Iron in Aquaponics... According to this article, EDDHA is more likely to make the water "light pink" or "red" and DPTA has little impact on coloring water.

For anyone curious, aqua-ponics is a freshwater system involving the collision of growing healthy plants while growing healthy fish and many of these systems have goldfish and koi rather than edible fish.


Yep, EDDHA has a tendancy of making the water to be more of a light pink. The "blood red" would only occur if the measurements are incorrect or when it is initially being dissolved in a small amount of water.

Here is a video of the EDDHA being use in a fish tank. Notice the localized area is quite "blood red", but, as the dosage properly equilibriates, then there is only a light pink hue to the water.



In context of fish loss, Dr. Storey, uses DPTA and nutrient mixes with the chelated iron with EDDHA without any issues infecting his fish. Also, he puts his iron in his sump tanks, before his plant beds, where the dosage is agitated very well so to properly disperse iron before it reaches the fish tank.

If there were fish loss, then my guess is they likely made a mistake in their dosages or incorrectly dosed their water.

Rather than directly dosing the water, I would dissolve the dosage into a 5 gallon bucket then slowly pour it around the parameter of the pond instead of directly dosing the pond. If you were to directly dose the pond, then there is quite likely a high chance for the fish to swim through a very high concentration of iron, which would likely kill them.


2) Charles, our water source is 100% well based. It comes from the ground. So, I'm assuming from what you say that it could be high in phospherous. I'm in Southern California, high desert. Our water quality report did not include phosphorous or phosphate levels. What would be the impact of phosphorous on all of this?

It will only be high in phosphorous if the underground aquifer contains various phosphate rock deposits. Actually, most aquifers have more limestone deposits, or some form of it, rather than phosphate rocks. I rarely come across someone who has well water, whether it is from an underground aquifer or a mountain, that is dominant in phosphorous. Although, it does happen and I have mostly seen it with folk who live in North Carolina.

The impact of having water that is dominant in phosphorous is that the pH will be relatively lower with an extremely high alkalinity. I have seen phosphorous dominant waters have a pH of 7.5 while maintaining an alkalinity of 20 dkh (or 357 ppm).

Also, these waters will have quite significant plant growth, including plant's evil cousin Algae.
 

crsublette

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Be sure to use an iron test kit, such as this one by SeaChem. You only want the iron to test around 0.10 mg/l to 1.0 mg/l, except try to stay closer to the 0.10 mg/l level to reduce likeliness of an algae bloom.

After doing some research, it appears that all iron test kits are not created equal and many iron test kits do not test for chelated iron in the form of DTPA and EDDHA.


I went to double check on SeaChem Iron test kit and it appears their test kit only tests for non-chelated iron such as the iron that is found in their product, Flourish Iron.

So, I would not use their iron test kit if using a chelated iron product.


I am going to submit a question to Dr. Storey to see how he recommends to test for iron that uses a DPTA or EDDHA chelating agent.
 

crsublette

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Yeah, definitely the EDDHA colors the water, but the extent appears to be determined by the manufacturer. I am seeing pictures of folk using EDDHA and their water was a pink rose color or a cherry kool-aid color.


Use DPTA if you do not want your water to be a pink rose color or red kool-aid.


Keep in mind that I am still on the hunt for a proper iron test kit that can actually test for DPTA and/or EDDHA chelated iron.


Miller also makes a DPTA iron. Here it is... Miller Iron Chelate DP and here is the label indicating it is 10% iron purely chelated with DPTA. Keep in mind this product is much less effective if the water's pH is above 7.5.


Here are the calculations for this product...

2.0 mg / L = 7.58 mg / gal

Total Iron in Miller Iron Chelate DP = 10%

Divide 7.58 by 0.10 = 75.8 mg / gal

This means it takes 75.8 mg / gal of Miller Iron Chelate DP to obtain 2.0 mg / L. Now, multiply this by your pond's volume.

If your pond is 3,000 gallons, then ... 75.8 mg / gal X 3,000 = 227,400 mg or 227.4 grams

So, 227.4 grams of Miller Iron Chelate DP to dose a 3,000 gallon pond to have 2.0 mg / L of Iron. Now, I want to quarter this so to only give me 0.50 mg / L.

Divide 227.4 by 4 = 56.85 grams

56.85 grams (or 2.005 ounces) of Miller Iron Chelate DP needed to dose a 3,000 gallon pond to have 0.50 mg / L of Iron.


So... For a 3,000 gallon pond, then I would only do a dosage of 2 ounces of Miller Iron Chelate DP.


Still on the hunt for proper test kits.
 
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crsublette

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After I complained here about my water hyacinths they decided to go crazy with blooms. Lol! Yesterday I had 13 blooming today I have 15! Love it!

Besides all the talk on water, are you sure your fish aren't nibbling the roots? I had that problem with my first batch. I didn't think I did because they had really LONG black roots, but Waterbug mentioned to look for the new white roots, they were none. That's when I figured out what was going on.

I now have them netted and after a few months of the netting they seem to have taken off. Fingers crossed.

We are talking about the a plant known as one of the worst weeds in the world. Its used to clean water, I some how can't figure out why its so picky about growing in ponds, when Disney world uses it to clean up its waste water. Lol!


Good deal.

Yeah, I bet new roots could still poke through the netting for fish to nibble on, but I bet most of them will be protected.
 

addy1

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Good deal ! Priscilla, they have such beautiful blossoms.
 
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Update on my WH.

They were doing FANTASTIC! I went on vacation, the red platys went mad and I now have hundreds of platys in the pond, I'm guessing they are causing some ammonia issues because I am suddenly seeing lots of string algae. And guess what - WH are looking terrible! They have the algae on the roots and its choking them or sucks all the nutrients. I don't know what's going on, but they went from fab to fail!

I'll be out buying a third batch in three weeks or so. :(

Oh, and I also bought a KH and GH test. Now I have to figure out what they are for!
 

crsublette

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Update on my WH.

They were doing FANTASTIC! I went on vacation, the red platys went mad and I now have hundreds of platys in the pond, I'm guessing they are causing some ammonia issues because I am suddenly seeing lots of string algae. And guess what - WH are looking terrible! 1) They have the algae on the roots and its choking them or sucks all the nutrients. I don't know what's going on, but they went from fab to fail!

I'll be out buying a third batch in three weeks or so. :(

2) Oh, and I also bought a KH and GH test. Now I have to figure out what they are for!


1) They have the algae on the roots and its choking them or sucks all the nutrients.

You can try to clean the plant's roots by killing the algae without killing the plant by using a low concentrated oxidizer such as 3% hydroxide peroxide that is bought at the grocery store. Use 3.2 ounces per 100 gallons or .946 ml per 1 gallon of water; 1 teaspoon is approximately 5 ml and 1 tablespoon is 14.78 ml to help ya figure measurements. Make this solution in a tub or something and then soak the plants roots in this for 24 hours.

Don't know if it will help, but worth a try.


2) Oh, and I also bought a KH and GH test. Now I have to figure out what they are for!

First time for everyone :)

Amongst the other threads in the chemistry section, thread pH & KH -- Questions [and a good article] will hopefully help to make sense of things for ya.
 

crsublette

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Still on the hunt for proper test kits.

Welp, I entirely forgot about this thread so figure I'd give an update.

I found the digital Hanna Checker handheld Iron tester and this reliably tests for DTPA Iron. I simply created a standard solution of deionized reverse osmosis water mixed with proper amount of DTPA chelated iron, did the math to know exactly how many ppm it should be, then put the digital tester in the water and the result was pretty much right on, with a quite small variance. When I tried it with EDDHA chelated iron, the variance was too high for me to reliably trust it; I have not yet found a good tester for EDDHA chelated iron.

Remember, the most common pond/aquarium store iron test kits, such as Seachem's Iron test kit, are mainly testing for non-chelated irons, such as ferrous iron sulfate, and EDTA chelated iron.

Also remember... Keep the iron concentration below 2.0 ppm.
 
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