Water Changes

[Lisak1]

Thanks - some light reading for my evening!

I tried to upload the PDF - it said the file was too large.

 

[barryian]

I apologize for intruding here, but this begs the questions: What contaminants? How do you know that they are high? How is a high level of general bacteria harmful?

No apologies necessary Meyer. I've been doing water changes for 23 years. 23 years ago it was the thing to do, especially since my pond was small with poor filtration, no bottom drain, no Savio skimmer. no pre-filter and no external pump without a high end bead filter. ..... all of which are running now and a UV to boot.

My pond has changed. I'm not a kid but I am blessed to have an open mind. I don't think you really want those answers such as keeping aeromonas to a minimum or diluting contaminants such as leaves or whatever from the environment .
I think you have another angle going on here ... lol ... and I am giggling a bit.

So, my open mindedness is telling me, try what you're all saying, dramatically cut back on water changes. That is what you're say, correct. Never be proactive in the Spring and Fall by using something rather benign such as Prazi Q, don't be concerned about aeromonas alley, let whatever contaminants build ( if they do ) continue to build up ... as if the fish are healthy, their high immunity will take care of everything.

Are you saying if I don't do much, I'll get through April - November, possibly as unscathed as when I perform all the care I have been doing?

I can't imagine never doing water changes in a dedicated non planted koi pond, but, please, let me know what you're really saying here... I watch these boys and girls closely when feeding, etc ... mostly for enjoyment and the amazement of their beauty and the list goes on .... but also to make sure there isn't anything brewing.

btw - I do use my microscope on occasion looking at the water and haven't seen any koi bacterial predators. Over time years back, I identified a fungus and treated it. Another time I saw an anchor worm, used eugenol, put the koi out, removed the AW, treated the site and treated the pond with Dimilin 25 & in both instances went all went unscathed.
15 years back, I injected an antibiotic, also worked out fine. In most instances I find they heal themselves from scrapes and bruises with good water quality and no intervention is needed. The above are exceptions to the rule.

 

[barryian]

Some will always feel that there is a need for interference in the pond, that if you don't do this or don't do that, that you're neglectful. I'm from the school of "benign neglect" whereby I don't screw with it unless it needs screwing with. It's really quite simple, adequate aeration, proper fish load, adequate filtration, a decent crop of marginal plants, keep the debris off the bottom, drink gin and look at it. Simple really.

See my lengthy ( sorry for the length ) reply to Meyer ....

 

[addy1]

Thanks - some light reading for my evening!

I tried to upload the PDF - it said the file was too large.

Maybe if it was converted to a text file it would up load. I know we can upload word docs etc.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Maybe if it was converted to a text file it would up load. I know we can upload word docs etc.

Many times when you convert to a text file you lose the accompanying charts and diagrams or have to format those individually. Entirely too much trouble. Easier to email to those that want.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

No apologies necessary Meyer. I've been doing water changes for 23 years. 23 years ago it was the thing to do, especially since my pond was small with poor filtration, no bottom drain, no Savio skimmer. no pre-filter and no external pump without a high end bead filter. ..... all of which are running now and a UV to boot.

My pond has changed. I'm not a kid but I am blessed to have an open mind. I don't think you really want those answers such as keeping aeromonas to a minimum or diluting contaminants such as leaves or whatever from the environment .
I think you have another angle going on here ... lol ... and I am giggling a bit.

So, my open mindedness is telling me, try what you're all saying, dramatically cut back on water changes. That is what you're say, correct. Never be proactive in the Spring and Fall by using something rather benign such as Prazi Q, don't be concerned about aeromonas alley, let whatever contaminants build ( if they do ) continue to build up ... as if the fish are healthy, their high immunity will take care of everything.

Are you saying if I don't do much, I'll get through April - November, possibly as unscathed as when I perform all the care I have been doing?

I can't imagine never doing water changes in a dedicated non planted koi pond, but, please, let me know what you're really saying here... I watch these boys and girls closely when feeding, etc ... mostly for enjoyment and the amazement of their beauty and the list goes on .... but also to make sure there isn't anything brewing.

btw - I do use my microscope on occasion looking at the water and haven't seen any koi bacterial predators. Over time years back, I identified a fungus and treated it. Another time I saw an anchor worm, used eugenol, put the koi out, removed the AW, treated the site and treated the pond with Dimilin 25 & in both instances went all went unscathed.
15 years back, I injected an antibiotic, also worked out fine. In most instances I find they heal themselves from scrapes and bruises with good water quality and no intervention is needed. The above are exceptions to the rule.

Nope, no angle. Just trying to understand your justifications for water changes. I have stated many times in previous threads that dedicated Koi ponds, such as yours apparently is, may require water changes to control Nitrate levels or for other reasons but there exists today other means of accomplishing these same goals without disturbing all of the water quality parameters in the process.
I would appreciate an answer to my questions. You neglected to address them in your post.
As to your prophylactic use of chemical treatments, that is a discussion for a separate thread.

 

[pecan]

Wow a long thread on the topic! I admittedly only read the first page but here's what I do.

At first I only topped the water off and did one large water change (20%-30%) in spring when I got the pond running and fall before shutting it down. Then one year I had a koi get fin rot (2013 IIRC). So I started doing periodic water changes to stop the fin rot, no other measures were taken. The fin rot stopped and the damaged fin began to grow back very soon after I started the water changes. So now I have been pretty good about doing small 10% or less changes once a month and sometimes more in the heat of the summer. That specific koi's fin is all grown back and looks great and no other issues.

This spring I made changes to the plumbing to allow for easier water changes. I added drain out valves on the skippy filters.

So now to do a water change I simply hook a hose up to the drain out valve and lay the other end in whatever flower bed gets lucky that day, open it up and toss the garden hose in the water fall.

Super easy, water's the flower beds and flushing the gunk from the bottom of the skippy all while doing a quick water change with little effort. Win win.

 

[Nepen]

To me a 40-50% water change is drastic.

you are probably right.. but I was thinking about drastic as 75% or more.

 

[barryian]

Nope, no angle. Just trying to understand your justifications for water changes. I have stated many times in previous threads that dedicated Koi ponds, such as yours apparently is, may require water changes to control Nitrate levels or for other reasons but there exists today other means of accomplishing these same goals without disturbing all of the water quality parameters in the process.
I would appreciate an answer to my questions. You neglected to address them in your post.
As to your prophylactic use of chemical treatments, that is a discussion for a separate thread.

Well Meyer - You won't like my answer. Side tracking a sec, Pecan said, he/she did a series of water changes because his fish got fin rot. Why did it get fin rot? Possibly bad water quality? Why did he have bad water quality? No testing? PH fluctuations being not buffered. I have no answer but what did Pecan do? Water changes !!!

Well, actually, I looked back and can't find your original thread. If you want specific names of bacteria that I want to keep down in my pond, I can't answer the question. Maybe I used the wrong word. Maybe I should have said parasites. Are there not always parasites in the pond? Are there also aeromonas and pseudomonas in the pond at all times. If I remove 20% of water, common sense tells me that I'm removing 20% of the parasites also.
If there is no bacteria in my pond, please confirm that. Thanks.
Otherwise, am I not also replacing trace elements good for the fish and the good for bacteria. Doesn't a water change reduce phosphates also? I find it difficult to believe that water changes, which every book and online source tell you to do can, be bad. Why are all my koi not dying or coming down with something that would attack them, if water changes were affecting them negatively.

Meyer, why don't you please tell me your thoughts on this. Thanks

 

[pecan]

Well Meyer - You won't like my answer. Side tracking a sec, Pecan said, he/she did a series of water changes because his fish got fin rot. Why did it get fin rot? Possibly bad water quality? Why did he have bad water quality? No testing? PH fluctuations being not buffered. I have no answer but what did Pecan do? Water changes !!!

Well, actually, I looked back and can't find your original thread. If you want specific names of bacteria that I want to keep down in my pond, I can't answer the question. Maybe I used the wrong word. Maybe I should have said parasites. Are there not always parasites in the pond? Are there also aeromonas and pseudomonas in the pond at all times. If I remove 20% of water, common sense tells me that I'm removing 20% of the parasites also.
If there is no bacteria in my pond, please confirm that. Thanks.
Otherwise, am I not also replacing trace elements good for the fish and the good for bacteria. Doesn't a water change reduce phosphates also? I find it difficult to believe that water changes, which every book and online source tell you to do can, be bad. Why are all my koi not dying or coming down with something that would attack them, if water changes were affecting them negatively.

Meyer, why don't you please tell me your thoughts on this. Thanks

Pecan is a girl

But I get what you are saying.

I do water testing and my parameters are always where they need to be. That was actually the first thing I did when I noticed the fin rot. With all the tests coming out right on, I went with water changes. I have a large pond with a low fish load and heavy filtration so water changes was my first thought to try since all else seemed well.

I did 10% weekly for 4 weeks and noticed the fin healing then cut back to 10% once or twice a month.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Well Meyer - You won't like my answer. Side tracking a sec, Pecan said, he/she did a series of water changes because his fish got fin rot. Why did it get fin rot? Possibly bad water quality? Why did he have bad water quality? No testing? PH fluctuations being not buffered. I have no answer but what did Pecan do? Water changes !!!

Well, actually, I looked back and can't find your original thread. If you want specific names of bacteria that I want to keep down in my pond, I can't answer the question. Maybe I used the wrong word. Maybe I should have said parasites. Are there not always parasites in the pond? Are there also aeromonas and pseudomonas in the pond at all times. If I remove 20% of water, common sense tells me that I'm removing 20% of the parasites also.
If there is no bacteria in my pond, please confirm that. Thanks.
Otherwise, am I not also replacing trace elements good for the fish and the good for bacteria. Doesn't a water change reduce phosphates also? I find it difficult to believe that water changes, which every book and online source tell you to do can, be bad. Why are all my koi not dying or coming down with something that would attack them, if water changes were affecting them negatively.

Meyer, why don't you please tell me your thoughts on this. Thanks

Parasites and pathogenic organisms are ubiquitous to fresh water environs. They are also present in drinking water supplies, but at levels safe for human consumption. Aeromonas hydrophilia, although present at levels safe for humans, may very well be at levels dangerous to fish and amphibians as this particular pathogenic organism is many times more infectious to these two types of animals as to humans.
In a water change is one just swapping Aeromonas? Could one be adding to the pond's Aeromonas population? Only extensive testing would provide an answer. So the question remains: As regards certain pathogens, is a water change truly beneficial?
On a side note, if Aeromonas hydrophilia was an active threat to the health of fish, why are not fish constantly ill. Aeromonas hydrophilia is present in the gut of all fish specie and is constantly being added to the water column via fish feces.
Aeromonas are only a health issue when fish are stressed. Minimizing stress to one's fish is the best means of prevention of all pathogenic infections.

Trace elements levels are maintained through the supplemental feeding of pond fish. These micronutrients are contained in all manufactured fish food. Water changes accomplish nothing in this regard.

I think that the true confusion regarding water changes really centers around the public's perception of tap water. The quality guidelines for drinking water are formulated with the health of the majority of humans, and only humans, as the benchmark. Drinking water is NOT sterile. It does contain pathogens, chemicals and minerals. The accepted levels of these are normally not a health hazard to humans (or other mammals), but may very well be, at least, mildly toxic to certain aquatic organisms.
When doing a water change it is entirely possible that you could be introducing an otherwise absent, toxic agent to the pond or augmenting the level of an existing one.
Do water changes do lasting harm to a pond's ecology?..probably not.
Do water changes provide any lasting benefit to a pond's ecology?...probably not.
My contention is, and always has been, that water changes are completely unnecessary. Any remediating action given as a reason for water changes can be accomplished in other less intrusive ways eliminating any stress imparted to the fish (and other aquatic organisms) however slight this stress may be perceived to be.

 

[barryian]

Pecan is a girl

But I get what you are saying.

I do water testing and my parameters are always where they need to be. That was actually the first thing I did when I noticed the fin rot. With all the tests coming out right on, I went with water changes. I have a large pond with a low fish load and heavy filtration so water changes was my first thought to try since all else seemed well.

I did 10% weekly for 4 weeks and noticed the fin healing then cut back to 10% once or twice a month.

Hi Girl I wasn't sure but could have assumed Pecan ? So the water changes worked, right? Do you do regular water changes? Just curious but what did you attribute the cause to?

 

[barryian]

Parasites and pathogenic organisms are ubiquitous to fresh water environs. They are also present in drinking water supplies, but at levels safe for human consumption. Aeromonas hydrophilia, although present at levels safe for humans, may very well be at levels dangerous to fish and amphibians as this particular pathogenic organism is many times more infectious to these two types of animals as to humans.
In a water change is one just swapping Aeromonas? Could one be adding to the pond's Aeromonas population? Only extensive testing would provide an answer. So the question remains: As regards certain pathogens, is a water change truly beneficial?
On a side note, if Aeromonas hydrophilia was an active threat to the health of fish, why are not fish constantly ill. Aeromonas hydrophilia is present in the gut of all fish specie and is constantly being added to the water column via fish feces.
Aeromonas are only a health issue when fish are stressed. Minimizing stress to one's fish is the best means of prevention of all pathogenic infections.

Trace elements levels are maintained through the supplemental feeding of pond fish. These micronutrients are contained in all manufactured fish food. Water changes accomplish nothing in this regard.

I think that the true confusion regarding water changes really centers around the public's perception of tap water. The quality guidelines for drinking water are formulated with the health of the majority of humans, and only humans, as the benchmark. Drinking water is NOT sterile. It does contain pathogens, chemicals and minerals. The accepted levels of these are normally not a health hazard to humans (or other mammals), but may very well be, at least, mildly toxic to certain aquatic organisms.
When doing a water change it is entirely possible that you could be introducing an otherwise absent, toxic agent to the pond or augmenting the level of an existing one.
Do water changes do lasting harm to a pond's ecology?..probably not.
Do water changes provide any lasting benefit to a pond's ecology?...probably not.
My contention is, and always has been, that water changes are completely unnecessary. Any remediating action given as a reason for water changes can be accomplished in other less intrusive ways eliminating any stress imparted to the fish (and other aquatic organisms) however slight this stress may be perceived to be.

I completely agree with paragraph one that the Aeromonas are always present. I would think though, that new fresh chlorinated tap water must have a extremely low level and is lowering the Aeromonas, pathogens and parasites. Are they not multiplying when water changes go completely undone?
Is there something else keeping the level down that I don't know about? If fish are healthy and unstressed but a pond is loaded with the above, wouldn't the fish be more likely to an invasive or surface infection?

Trace elements? I didn't know that they are supplied by the food but that does make sense. I never thought about it. So year after year, you're saying water changes are " Never " necessary? I am not trying to insight you or make you crazy but I just can't imagine, even though you've spelled it out, that water changes don't freshen things up, so to speak. I can't imagine they don't keep the dangerous population at bay.

Can you be a bit more specific as to what that substitute you've mentioned here and prior for water changes are? Thanks Meyer ...

btw - I do neutralize the chlorine

 

[pecan]

Hi Girl I wasn't sure but could have assumed Pecan ? So the water changes worked, right? Do you do regular water changes? Just curious but what did you attribute the cause to?

Yes I can only assume the water changes worked. The fin rot visibly stopped after doing a 10% water change weekly for 4 weeks. Then the fin started to grow back so I continued the waters changes just less frequent, 10% once or twice a month. That has been a couple years now and I still do the water changes once or twice a month which also flushes the gunk build up from the bottom of my skippy filters. The gunk can reduce my pump flow so its a win win for me.

I don't know enough about water and fish disease to explain why the water changes helped the fin rot, but they did so I wont argue with it and Ill keep doing the periodic water changes. I also drop the hose in it to top off the pond between water changes.

I don't change out enough water at any one time to require de-chlor except when I do a big spring and fall cleaning.

I also treat my pond as a pretty natural environment. As long as I have adequate filtration, low fish stock for the volume and do water changes, everything is considered beyond my control. I am not going to add chemicals or medication as I draw the line at putting any more effort into it, as its supposed to be for enjoyment not work. So I also wont stay up nights worrying about it.

A natural pond has fresh water flowing into it at all times. So I have hard time thinking it's good for the fish and pond to primarily live in re-circulated water all the time. It needs fresh water too from time to time.

And that's my uneducated opinion on the matter take for exactly that, an uneducated opinion. LOL

 

[Smaug]

So many points you all brought up. Water changes will always be part of my fish keeping regimen,I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm not even doing it for the reasons that some of you speak of. I'm doing it because my pond isn't a natural environment, no body of water with a rubber liner and no natural water turnover could be. I do not use a big filter I only ever had that lily and it did nothing but keep me from being able to keep sludge build up at bay so it's gone. Indoor fish tanks need water changes for the same reason.