UV or not UV

[crsublette]

Yep, exactly, if the goal is just to kill algae, when going bigger with the UV device, then "half capacity will still work better than a lower watt unit functioning at full capacity", and this allows you more use out of the device. Also, if ya shop around well enough, then you'll likely find bulb replacements that are quite cheap as long as their specifications are correct and are not of poor quality

UV maintenance is critical in small systems. This is quite an interesting article that explains well how a UV device's quality dictates the life and performance of the device.

There actually are bulb's gaskets that are more prone to leaking, the filament more likely to fail, the lamp more likely to burn out, and the unit constructed with poor material that reduces performance. UV light also creates a low level amount of ozone and this also causes the chamber to further corrode. The point of the stainless steel is to make sure none of the UV light is wasted by absorbing into the chamber walls, but, if improperly built and protected during manufacturing, the stainless steel chamber could be worse due to corroding much faster.

 

[slakker]

UV or Not UV? I'm leaning towards not.

I'm new to ponds but have leaned away from UV in my reef tanks for a few reasons. In a reef, algae blooms don't create green water but also UV kills many suspended life in the water column.

I'm curious if the same applies for ponds?

1) Does killing suspended algae just simply releases the nitrogen locked in those algae cells back into the water to increase nitrogen load? Which if that's the case, it's a vicious cycle requiring some other means for nitrogen export via water changes or plant life. Worse case, it feed other nuisance algae.

2) Would a pond UV system kill anything beneficial in the water column? ie; beneficial bacteria or other "good" microscopic pond life?

3) In reefs, a benefit of UV is that it a good water "polisher", is that a benefit of UV in ponds?

Sorry if these are too mundane... I'm just starting to learn about ponds and don't want my reef bias is limiting me...

 

[crsublette]

Any plant decay will release the constituents parts that once formed it back into the water, but I don't think this is a good reason to not have plants or algae in a pond.

Eventually, the suspended algae will collapse and this is unavoidable unless constantly adding fertilizer to maintain it. I know in the coral reef hobby, when using algae scrubbers, the tanks are well fertilized so to keep the algae scrubber alive.

UV's are indiscriminate killers due to how it produces ozone. There are beneficial bacteria, during the decomposition of plant decay, that also release very small concentrations of hydrogen peroxide, which is essentiialy weak rendition of ozone.

Not for sure how a UV would be a polisher since it does not removing anything from the water. UVs only kill stuff, through oxidation, that comes into contact with the water and leaves behind a dissolved particulate residue.

UV's would only kill the beneficial stuff when the beneficial stuff is floating in the water and gets sucked into the UV device.

I am actually suprised UVs would be considered in a coral reef tank since coral reef tanks are tremendously different than our outdoor ponds due to how the coral reef needs all of the critters in the water to keep it alive by these critters controlling the water parameters. Our ponds do not need anywhere near this level of control of water parameters that coral reef tanks require. From what I understand, coral reef tanks require much more of an ecosystem for the survival of the coral reef moreso than our outdoor ponds would ever require for the survival of our goldfish.

Personally, I do not even know if it would be possible, or would be quite time consuming and difficult, to maintain a coral reef system in an outdoor pond due to all of the environmental influences that an indoor coral reef aquarium does not experience.

 

[slakker]

We use UV and O3 generators in the reef hobby. It polishes water in that it takes some of the yellow tint (there are some free floating algae even in salt water) out of the water making it more clear. It's also used to kill bacteria/parasites, but it's indiscriminate.

We also use protein skimmers which I've found some folks are experimenting in ponds! So a lot of the "killed" material and other waste from the bio-load can be removed that way.

I have seen some folks keep outdoor reefs... the Waikiki aquarium keeps a nice one.

 

[crsublette]

Extremely interesting.

The coral reef and plant aquarium tanks are quite fascinating. I have learned more from their forums than any goldfish pond forum, but this is due to the fact that goldfish/koi pond just do not require such detail. I don't think i'll ever want to keep a coral reef or planted aquarium due to time constraints, but they are a beautiful and an intellectually intense hobby.


Oh yeah, protein skimmers are quite prevalent in the freshwater pond hobby. Although freshwater has a lower surface tension than more salty marine water, freshwater protein skimmers have a tougher time at creating the foaming, but it is definitely still doable. Here's a good thread showing their effectiveness, Mucky's Phoam Phraxionator (pun intended ). Also, I have much more references to very good builds and examples of showing their effectiveness, but here is a particular one that combines a protein skimmer with a trickle tower.

I don't know why... but in the freshwater pond hobby, they often refer to "protein skimmers" as foam fractionators or, if you live in California or on the east coast, they're called phoam phraxionators.

 

[slakker]

Foam fractionator is probably a more technically correct term. The only downside for the pond seems like it's hard to hide from what I see as examples, at least in the reef, I hide everything in my sump.

I suspect you'll also need a pretty good load in the water to generate enough micro foam in fresh water or else it won't skim well. The stuff I get out of my reefs are nasty dark green smelly gunk. The examples I see in the fresh water systems are pretty nice clean looking foam, not sure if it's doing much.

 

[crsublette]

I don't know... that glass Mucky filled up looks quite septic. Even though the foam looks clean and white, once allowed to settle, it is nasty stuff.

The nice thing about aquarium hobbies is that you learn the tricks of the trade to make stuff small and hide stuff very well!! :claphands:

When talking on the bigger scale of pond, then hiding stuff definitely inquires one's genius to be clever in their DIY'n. There are also much more expensive retail FFs (acronym for these devices) that also use ozone as well to aid in creating the foam.

Imagination is the only restriction in creating these FFs, such as the combo TT&FF.. TT for trickle tower. Also, there are many shower towers that add a small FF in front of them.

So that the FF would not have to be so tall, here is another one where a fella made a multiple column FF, that appears to work quite well.

Also, in an attempt to make them smaller, there are the counter current FFs, which use an aerator or a venturi to create the foam.

Here is a counter current FF made with a coke bottle.

Bah, there is another very clever with the plumbing that has the foam waste outlet inside the FF and exits out of a side tube down into a container so that it is managed and hidden extremely well. Very clever design and this is going to bug the heck out of me for not finding the dang bookmark. I need to get back on my project of organizing and notating my dang bookmark library. This is gonna drive me crazy for not being able to find it. Grr, I'm motivated now to do some notating.

These devices become more effective after an oxidator is used in the water.

The problem with freshwater FFs is with the lack of surface tension. The surface tension is what captures the dissolve particulates and the weather, such as humidity, dew point, sunlight, temperature, has a tremendous impact on the surface tension as well.

Outdoor pond water is actually more dirty than I think you realize.

 

[slakker]

I've probably been lucky, my pond went clear and clean without an algal bloom... also fun to putter and tinker!

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I don't know... that glass Mucky filled up looks quite septic.
Even though the foam looks clean and white, once allowed to settle, it is nasty stuff.

The nice thing about aquarium hobbies is that you learn the tricks of the trade to make stuff small and hide stuff very well!! :claphands:

One interesting thing I've noticed about the ejected foam residue from the FF is that after it condenses and eventually dries up, it resembles, and I guess actually is, just carbon. In my thread I mention the smell as the Fractionator is working, but the condensed foam doesn't really have much smell at all. The stinky smell seems to be the gas contained in the bubbles, after the bubbles pop the remaining liquid doesn't seem too bad, even after it has been sitting a long time. I have some condensed stuff that's been sitting in my catch bucket now for a couple months and it's as thick as molasses. I take a whiff every once in a while to see if it's starting to stink, but it almost has no perceptible smell. If there's any bacteria growing in it, they aren't stinky ones.

On the subject of hiding stuff like filters and pumps and hoses, I don't think pond people try hard enough to hide their plumbing. Not sure why, but maybe it's because for a lot of people that stuff is half the hobby. Why would you go to a lot of trouble to hide all that stuff that is so fun to "putter and tinker" with all the time. Even people who have filter pits often don't bother covering them, which I find strange. Almost all in ground pools have pump houses where all there pool pumps, filters, chemicals, etc.. are hidden, but when it comes to ponds they like to keep that stuff out in the open. And some fancy hi-tech koi pond have much more complicated filters and plumbing than your average swimming pool, and they still have their plumbing out in the open. Maybe in those cases they are just so proud of their fancy set up they want everyone to see. :cheerful:

Hey Slakker, I see you are in Vancouver, that makes you the closest member of this forum to me (that I know of). You ever get out to the Okanagan area?

 

[crsublette]

One interesting thing I've noticed about the ejected foam residue from the FF is that after it condenses and eventually dries up, it resembles, and I guess actually is, just carbon. In my thread I mention the smell as the Fractionator is working, but the condensed foam doesn't really have much smell at all. The stinky smell seems to be the gas contained in the bubbles, after the bubbles pop the remaining liquid doesn't seem too bad, even after it has been sitting a long time. I have some condensed stuff that's been sitting in my catch bucket now for a couple months and it's as thick as molasses. I take a whiff every once in a while to see if it's starting to stink, but it almost has no perceptible smell. If there's any bacteria growing in it, they aren't stinky ones.

On the subject of hiding stuff like filters and pumps and hoses, I don't think pond people try hard enough to hide their plumbing. Not sure why, but maybe it's because for a lot of people that stuff is half the hobby. Why would you go to a lot of trouble to hide all that stuff that is so fun to "putter and tinker" with all the time. Even people who have filter pits often don't bother covering them, which I find strange. Almost all in ground pools have pump houses where all there pool pumps, filters, chemicals, etc.. are hidden, but when it comes to ponds they like to keep that stuff out in the open. And some fancy hi-tech koi pond have much more complicated filters and plumbing than your average swimming pool, and they still have their plumbing out in the open. Maybe in those cases they are just so proud of their fancy set up they want everyone to see. :cheerful:

Hey Slakker, I see you are in Vancouver, that makes you the closest member of this forum to me (that I know of). You ever get out to the Okanagan area?

I understand exactly what ya are getting at. It sure does seem like some folk like to have that "ghetto" appearance by having all of their plumbing and filtration just hangng out like it is some work of abstract art. :chair:

 

[slakker]

My wife is a designer... I would proudly display all my "garage wars" gear if I could, but we know who has last say and it ain't me... I'd probably be listed AFTER the kois now that we have 2! LOL!

@mucky_waters: We do get to Kelowna every so often. My wife has some family are there and we love wine country.

 

[Cdsdave]

Interesting info everyone. I checked the quartz sleeve on the UV but it was almost completely clean. There was water inside the sleeve but the bulb is working fine to the best of my knowledge. Not sure if the water entered as I was taking the bulb out or what but I reassembled it ran the pump a little then disassembled it again. It didn't fill with water and the o rings seemed fine. I put a little vasoline on 1 just to help the seal.

I'm pretty certain an upgrade is in order. I'm just going to go as big as my budget will allow (within reason) and take it from there. As was said earlier, who knows how effective the UV is or isn't on pathogens. My feeling is if doesn't hurt anything but my wallet I can live with it.

Those reef aquariums are cool. Difficult to maintain from what I hear but I'm sure well worth it)

 

[sewsheknits]

There are indeed two ways to adjust flow rate. One way uses about $30 in plumbing fixtures so flow can be adjusted. Another way is to keep buying larger and larger UV units until you get the right size for whatever flow you happen have. That cost hundreds, even thousands of dollars and normally requires even more re-plumbing than adding flow control. Given two options most people do seem to choose the most complex and expensive. I have no idea why. Maybe it's hobby funness.

The concept of a UV killing enough pathogens to matter is reasonable in a very controlled environment like an aquarium. Even in that environment most experienced aquarists consider a sterilizer to be a help, not a cure of anything. A pond environment...good luck.

Waterbug & crsublette, I'm ready to take the $30 plumbing fixture route. I can figure all of the PVC pieces I'll need to add a bypass but what type of valves would you recommend. My pump is pushing 6600gph (top of range), but my UV is only rated for about 4400gph. I need to slow it down quite a bit. It will also be great to have the bypass so that I can do the maintenance on the UV without shutting the whole system down every time.

 

[sissy]

I saw at a plumbing supply store last week a double ball valve it started at a single and then went to a Y and and had 2 valves .Would that work .I was going to get one but the size I needed was out of stock 1 1/4 inch he had smaller and bigger .It looked like one of those hose adapters but plastic .I like that it had the bigger red handles and he also told me there that you can order a triple one also ,but it is special order .The one I wanted was 15 dollars actually 18 but he gives me a discount

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Waterbug & crsublette, I'm ready to take the $30 plumbing fixture route. I can figure all of the PVC pieces I'll need to add a bypass but what type of valves would you recommend. My pump is pushing 6600gph (top of range), but my UV is only rated for about 4400gph. I need to slow it down quite a bit. It will also be great to have the bypass so that I can do the maintenance on the UV without shutting the whole system down every time.

If you want to isolate the UV unit you'll probably need 2 valves, one just before the unit, and one directly after it.
Any PVC ball valve sized to match the pipe will do. (eg. 3/4" pvc pipe = 3/4" valve, 2" pvc pipe = 2" valve, etc...)