Too Late for Koi?

[koidance]

Will your filters cope? I know how carried away we can all get when being offered good fish,but then I think of the filters and cool the amount down.

I can see you are in the US,most fisheries dislike trading Koi in Britain in the Winter,well the ones near us won't,unless you are experienced and have heated quarantine tanks.They usually offer to keep them until the Spring.

I think it was the shock as Koi are very susceptible to stress,and the cold just finished them off.Have you got other fish already settled in your pond? how are they?

They look nice Koi too,it is sad when they don't make it.

 

[DrDave]

I stop selling Koi before the pond temperatures here get into the low 60's. By then it is usually November and most folks around here are not thinking much about ponds, except to maintain them.

This year I kept a few in tanks and because of the lower pond temps I opted to keep them there till spring. With 2 active tanks, that allows me to use one as a hospital tank should I have any problems elsewhere. This has already helped me save my best 2 year old Sanke.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I just went through someting simular, where as a owner was forced to moved (foreclosure) and needed to find a home for his koi. My pond was empty as I had already brought my fish in for the winter, filter was dead as it was wel below 40. What I did was to bring my pond up to 65 degrees using hot tap, declorinated and let them acclimate to that. After I introduced them to the pond I covered with a solar liner to help slow the cool down process. So far so good.

 

[koidance]

Good for you DrDave,thinking ahead!! that's what it is all about planning in advance.

I checked on one of my ponds today for the temp,and couldn't find the thermometer,and when I did find it the water was a good 12 inches down.

Found the leak in the pump house,the top mats in the filter were solid with Autumnal conifer bits after a few storms,and the spray bar had blocked sending the water sideways,up into the disconnected UV tube.How it managed to escape is a mystery but a steady dripping had caused the problem.When the weather is better we leave the doors open on the pump house, so now I must go up and check daily just in case.

Out came the dechlorinator just like you ncOgnet,and filled the pond back up,took the best part of an hour...The water temp went down a bit but not too bad,as the pond is covered anyway.The Koi were lining up in a row,but they looked OK to me.

The extra heating keeps the water around 50 degrees fahrenheit,being on this forum has brought back the old measurements,so I have stopped thinking in Centigrade...At least the water keeps cycling,gives the bacteria something to do.LOL :banana:

 

[nc0gnet0]

Is 50 degrees a good temp? I dunno, accordng to what I have read a koi's immune system is pretty much shut down at that stage, are there any parasites or bacteria that can survive at this temp? It would seem 10 degrees higher or lower would be better........hopefully others will chime in.

 

[koidance]

No my calculations were wrong,as we have Centigrade only in the British Isles,whereas we used to have Fahrenheit for Temps,the original BRITISH Imperial weights,liquid pints and Gallons etc.Now we have to have things like Litres and Kilos and Centimetres and lastly Centigrade.

Sounds easy,but you try and change a lifetime of thinking and learning to a new direction or,perish the thought , fall foul of the law.

However,our ever so popular "European Masters" have NOW decided that, since we have all changed our shop scales and prices and do everything and anything else to the "European way",we can, now in 2009 use the old way after all!!

They make me sick,we managed perfectly well without Europe throughout our history,but now we have them changing our lives (well they think they are,that's a laugh !!!!! :banana

Sorry you were saying my temps are bad?,well add on another 9 degrees (so my better half said) and that will be correct on the fahrenheit scale.

 

[DrDave]

Taken from DrMath
The relation is F = 9*C/5 + 32, where F is the temperature in degrees
Fahrenheit, and C is the temperature in degrees Celsius. To find where
the number of degrees is the same on both scales, solve that equation
simultaneously with F = C. This gives you two first-degree equations
in the two unknowns F and C.

Use one equation to solve for one of the variables. Substitute it into
the other equation. This will give you one first-degree equation in
the other unknown. Solve that for that unknown. Use its value to find
the first unknown using the formula you derived in the first step.

 

[nc0gnet0]

When temperatures dropped below 60 degrees F, the Koi's immune system had already begun to slow down (at 65 deg F, the immune system operates at about 50% efficiency; at 60 degrees it has dropped to about 20% efficiency).
Bacteria, both good and bad, are both still very active. The fish still have healthy appetites, and the filter is operating at near 100% efficiency. Aeromonas bacteria is also quite happy at this temperature, and this is why we are entering what has been called "Aeromonas Alley".

At 50 degrees, the koi's immune system is operating at only about 10% efficiency, while aeromonas is still at about 60%.
Some of the warm water parasites have begun to slow down, but the cold-water parasites such as Costia and Chilodinella, are quite content, and can pose a threat to our now low-immune protected koi. Feeding should be almost nil at this point, although the filter is still capable of converting ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates, so these toxins should not be a problem.
The next magic number is 45 deg F.
This represents the low end of Aeromonas Alley because most bacteria have slowed to less than 20% effectiveness. The koi, because they are cold-water creatures (poikelotherms), have begun to enter a state of torpor, and are most likely no longer interested in food. They will be inactive most of the time, spending their days swimming slowly at the bottom, where the water is warmest (more on this later).
At 40 degrees, which is very nearly the coldest temperature a koi can survive in, the filter has ceased to function.
Bacteria, both pathogenic and beneficial, are at or near zero percent effectiveness, as is the koi's immune system. In short, everything, both ecologically and physiologically, has pretty much shut down.

Taken from: http://www.mpks.org/articles/BryBateman/winter.html

A good read for cold weather koi keeprs.​

 

[rdk]

What about Goldfish , What is the coldest they can live in?

 

[nc0gnet0]

I would assume it to be the same. Remember, the warmer water settles on the bottom of a frozen pond and typically this water is at or near 39 degrees (provided there is adequate depth).

My concern was that koidance had heated her pond to a temperature in which the Koi's immune system was essentially shut down, yet certain strains of bacteria were still quite active at that temp....not a good scenario.

 

[koikeepr]

if the goldfish are of the pond hardy variety, it's pretty much the same as koi.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Sorry you were saying my temps are bad?,well add on another 9 degrees (so my better half said) and that will be correct on the fahrenheit scale.

Bear in mind it's not me saying this, I am just making drawing some logical conclusions based on what I have read from respectable sources. It would appear that a koi is better off surviving the winter temps of certain northern climates such as mine in a pond that is frozen over or nearly frozen over (withthe exception of an air hole) then he would be in a pond in the same climate were steps were taken to heat the pond in such a way that the temeratue hovered around 50 degrees. In other words, strive for a temperature closer to 45 degrees or below or above 60 degrees. Having your temperature hovering in between 50-60 puts the koi at a disadvantage to several strains of bacteria that are still very active at this temp while the koi's own immune system is less than 20%. So, in effect you can have too much of a good thing.

 

[koidance]

Well you can read and read and read,but the best of books cannot beat experience in the field.
I know what works for my ponds,and some of the things we read in books is quite frankly rubbish.It takes time (years) to learn what is right for your fish and your pond.The first pond we had was in 1973,and we have been learning ever since.Nothing beats experience.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Well, to each his/her own and I am glad it i working out for you. However, I never said heating your pond was a bad idea, morever, if you are to do so there is alot of research out there as to what temperature you should strive to achieve. Progressively warmer tempteratures are not neccesarily better.

For instance 50 degrees is not better than 45 degrees just because it is 5 degrees warmer. Strong evidence suggests otherwise. The information I posted was taken from the midwest koi society, a group I am sure has had condsiderable first hand expeirance from many koi enthusiest that deal with the very situation we are talking about.

That being said, I am sure 50 degrees is much better that being frozen in a solid block of ice. But unless your plan on heating your pond above 65 degrees, there is no point in heating it above 45, as all you would be doing is placing the fish in a precarious postion. (If done so for an extended perod of time)

The fact that you have had great success with heating your pond to these temps (50 degree range) would most lilkely have more to do with the fact that you have good pond husbandry and your water is nearly bug free to beging with and not a testament that heating to your temperature (50) is neccesarly any better than heating to the low 40's.

 

[DrDave]

Since we are sharing opinions here, if I were to heat an indoor tank during the winter, I would keep it no less than 60 Degrees F for Koi.

Outside ponds in the colder climates, I would cover and try to maintain it above freezing.

I don't heat any of my ponds or tanks although I have the means to do so and I don't care about the cost if I chose to do so.

I live in a much milder climate than most, although we see frost every year. A few weeks ago, the hail covered my yard like snowfall.