My thoughts again Meyer but wouldnt all the koi be effected by this both large and small ?
Dave
Today we mourne the loss of... wait, what?
- Thread starter Shdwdrgn
- Start date
Dave
Meyer Jordan
Tadpole
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2014
- Messages
- 7,177
- Reaction score
- 5,678
- Location
- Pensacola, Florida
- Hardiness Zone
- 9a
- Country
Larger body mass requires more Oxygen. Thus larger fish will be affected by Oxygen depletion before smaller fish. This explanation is only an assumption in the case you described. How long had the fish been dead before she examined them. They would have been very difficult to access based on the info and photos you provided. Also based on the info and photos this was an apparent sudden drop in temperature which certainly would have affected the stress level on the fish.
Oh I totally agree with you there and if you look in one of the two photo's there is an offending axe that didnt help much in the way of stressing out her koi .
With the ice building up as it did there is no way she could tell me how long a fish had been dead for , if I remember correctly now it was in that same year I convinced her to move her koi indoors we are talking about 6 years or so ago now but my has she gone from strength to stregth koi wise since then and shes turned out to be a good friend and apt pupil.
This is what I cant understand @callingcolleen1 and my friend both hail from the same country and according to colleen they get the same temperatures yet she seems to have no problems at all
Both heated their ponds to some degree yet colleen always seems to have open water where my friend didnt ...
Dave
I wondered about the axe - was that an attempt to save the fish? Or just to see how thick the ice was?
It was a never ending task to keep a hole open from what she was telling me personally I would have suggested an Ice drill just to keep a hole in the ice but I suppose she went with the tools she had to hand .
I remember telling her off about the shock waves the axe would create and also thinking "remembering we didnt know each other then", that the coldest parts Canada and koi simply dont mix".
Dave
Meyer Jordan
Tadpole
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2014
- Messages
- 7,177
- Reaction score
- 5,678
- Location
- Pensacola, Florida
- Hardiness Zone
- 9a
- Country
I would think that depth of frost line, ambient soil temperature below frost line, prevailing winds and possibly other factors could come into play here. Just surmising for here in Florida frost is in the freezer and ice is in the tea.
Btw, the only St.John's that I could find in Canada is in Newfoundland which is on the Atlantic coast not the Pacific. Being a coastal community compared to Colleen being inland could also be a factor.
I believe it's full title is Fort st John Meyer British Columbia sorry my mistake
Dave
Last edited:
Wow this thread sure did get a lot of comments! Too bad I haven't received any notifications since Dave's message that I responded too... ah well.
So as an update, the koi is still hanging in there today, but definitely having some ups and downs. One day I thought I'd finally lost the fish, I couldn't find him anywhere. Turned out he was sitting on the bottom with the rest, looking like a normal fish. The next day he was laying sideways on the bottom. This morning he was caught up between some plants and rocks on the surface, looking completely dead. When I moved him back around, he sunk down to the bottom, and then after several breath-holding seconds he finally started swimming again.
After reading the above about chopping the ice with an axe, I realized I've been rather aggressive with the shovel and keeping the ice cleared back this year. I don't know if that is related to what ails this fish -- could be a coincidence or it could be the cause, but I'll try to be easier with the chopping from now on.
Last week the water temp was at 42F, today it was 38F. Generally the surface freezes over at around 35F, which brings the water temp back up a little again. As for water depth, that is totally dependent on the region. The frost line here is at a maximum of 12", and I don't think it's gotten that deep in many years. The ground temp stays so warm that when there is a layer of ice over the pond, the water temp comes up enough that the fish get active again, so really a 3' depth is perfectly fine here. Also because of my altitude, I get a lot more solar energy than most.
Oh yes, there was a question of the actual size of this koi. I don't have an exact measurement, but I would say he's about 10" (not including tail), and when I got him in 2011 he was about 3" long. And no he is not the largest... I have several koi larger than this one, including three that are around 6-7 years old and approximately 16" in length. He's also by far not the smallest -- I have koi, comets, and shubunkins in all sizes down to about 4-5", plus a small group of rosy-red minnows. There's nothing significant about this guy, he's about the same size as many others, one of many butterfly koi, one of many with the exact same colors... Just for some reason this guy got unlucky this year.
We're having a lot of varying weather again right now. It snowed last night, and it's supposed to be 54 tomorrow, with more snow coming in on Wednesday. Hopefully the water temp will come back up a little, that seemed to help him some, but if need be I'll turn on a heater to help a bit until Spring gets here. Otherwise all I can do is keep watching and hope for the best.
So as an update, the koi is still hanging in there today, but definitely having some ups and downs. One day I thought I'd finally lost the fish, I couldn't find him anywhere. Turned out he was sitting on the bottom with the rest, looking like a normal fish. The next day he was laying sideways on the bottom. This morning he was caught up between some plants and rocks on the surface, looking completely dead. When I moved him back around, he sunk down to the bottom, and then after several breath-holding seconds he finally started swimming again.
After reading the above about chopping the ice with an axe, I realized I've been rather aggressive with the shovel and keeping the ice cleared back this year. I don't know if that is related to what ails this fish -- could be a coincidence or it could be the cause, but I'll try to be easier with the chopping from now on.
Last week the water temp was at 42F, today it was 38F. Generally the surface freezes over at around 35F, which brings the water temp back up a little again. As for water depth, that is totally dependent on the region. The frost line here is at a maximum of 12", and I don't think it's gotten that deep in many years. The ground temp stays so warm that when there is a layer of ice over the pond, the water temp comes up enough that the fish get active again, so really a 3' depth is perfectly fine here. Also because of my altitude, I get a lot more solar energy than most.
Oh yes, there was a question of the actual size of this koi. I don't have an exact measurement, but I would say he's about 10" (not including tail), and when I got him in 2011 he was about 3" long. And no he is not the largest... I have several koi larger than this one, including three that are around 6-7 years old and approximately 16" in length. He's also by far not the smallest -- I have koi, comets, and shubunkins in all sizes down to about 4-5", plus a small group of rosy-red minnows. There's nothing significant about this guy, he's about the same size as many others, one of many butterfly koi, one of many with the exact same colors... Just for some reason this guy got unlucky this year.
We're having a lot of varying weather again right now. It snowed last night, and it's supposed to be 54 tomorrow, with more snow coming in on Wednesday. Hopefully the water temp will come back up a little, that seemed to help him some, but if need be I'll turn on a heater to help a bit until Spring gets here. Otherwise all I can do is keep watching and hope for the best.
You should never chop ice try your best to melt it by pouring hot water onto the surfave of the ice until you get a hole in the ice , thats the best way of doing things .
I asked how old the koi was because they can suffer from a condition Meyer corrected me on called sleepy sickness whch I didnt mind because lets face it we never stop learning in our hobby do we?
Sleepy sickness is caused by the intence cold and it is where the koi lay on their sides not moving to all intents and purposes as dead .
I used to call it sleeping sickness because this is what I knew it as for 27 years, so we live and learn .
However its normally younger koi aged up to two years of age hat are effected by this condition . once passed the two year stage they are normally fine with the winters colder water temperatures .
I'm sure turning the heater on will help some but only a few degrees at a time to give them time to equalize to each raise in temperature before setting the thermometer again (thats if they have one) , I'm not sure but would asume they do???
I cant answer that question as weve never used the model you guys use , so your the expert when it comes to them not I . I do however have a heater for mt QT unit that does have a control on it but thats more like the aquarium heaters but built in metal rather than glass.
However it will be prudent to run your pond heater each winter from now on to be on the absolute safe side easpecially if you have young koi .
Dave
Last edited:
The heater I have is 1500W, so its not going to raise the temp more than a couple degrees anyway. However this sleeping sickness you mention is curious, because it did seem like the fish was doing better when the temp was above 40F.
Well its not looking promising... Somehow he is still alive, but seems to be fading. The water temp was back up to 44F yesterday, but he barely responded to touch. After a bit he finally swam away, but he's essentially just rolling over on the bottom now. I'm tempted to try bringing him inside and put him in the hyacinth tub, but that's only 30 gallons, and I don't think I have any filters big enough to handle the load. I could always bring in a 55gal barrel which would give him a little more space and fill it with pond water to reduce the shock, just not sure there's anything I can actually do to help him.
Its sleepy sickness as Meyer corrected me it primarily effects koi up to two years of age , if left they can die , the experts recomend raising the temperature of the pond at a degree per day .
Have you ever thought about a propper inline koi heater see link :-
http://www.absolute-koi.com/cat10.html
They are IKW 2KW 3Kw upwards and do a very good job of keeping the warm and ice free
Dave
Considering I've had this guy for 3 1/2 years (purchased the Summer of 2011), he is probably over 4 years old, so I'm not sure how this applies? And even if I do bring him inside, there's no way to control the temperature to that degree -- it will probably come up to house temp within a couple days. I'm limited on options.
As for the pond heater -- you can't expect to run more than 1800W through a standard 15A house circuit, and when you factor in 50' of extension cord, there's just too much loss. I manage to run my 1500W heater from a 20A circuit in the garage, but I don't run it except as needed. My whole house only has a 100A feed, so again my options are limited.
As for the pond heater -- you can't expect to run more than 1800W through a standard 15A house circuit, and when you factor in 50' of extension cord, there's just too much loss. I manage to run my 1500W heater from a 20A circuit in the garage, but I don't run it except as needed. My whole house only has a 100A feed, so again my options are limited.
As long as its over a period of time bringing him indoors could be an option but you'd have to have the filters and tank to support him throughout the rest of the winter .
For future areference a QT fasilty is a must when it comes to fish keeping , our own is a specialist built 550 gallons imperial one with bottom drain filter UV-C venturie.
Powered by a wet pump a blagdon 2000 all I need add is an airpump and pond water and its in business .
Dave
For future areference a QT fasilty is a must when it comes to fish keeping , our own is a specialist built 550 gallons imperial one with bottom drain filter UV-C venturie.
Powered by a wet pump a blagdon 2000 all I need add is an airpump and pond water and its in business .
Dave
I meant to follow up over the weekend but didn't get a chance. The fish expired sometime late last week, probably sometime Thursday. Its a shame he wasn't able to hold out for a couple more days, the water temp shot up to 50 degrees this weekend. Everybody else seems to be doing fine and they came looking for food yesterday.
I lost one small shubunkin last year, and that was the first time I ever lost a fish over the Winter. Generally once they make it past the first month after purchase, I don't have any problems. I think this is the first time I've ever lost a koi, and certainly the first time I've lost one of the big fish. I even managed to get the leaves cleaned up really good this Fall, but I think if the weather holds through the week I'll try to do a large water change next weekend.
Ah well, so long little fella. You gave death one hell of a struggle.
I lost one small shubunkin last year, and that was the first time I ever lost a fish over the Winter. Generally once they make it past the first month after purchase, I don't have any problems. I think this is the first time I've ever lost a koi, and certainly the first time I've lost one of the big fish. I even managed to get the leaves cleaned up really good this Fall, but I think if the weather holds through the week I'll try to do a large water change next weekend.
Ah well, so long little fella. You gave death one hell of a struggle.