To skim or not to skim (leak problem, new home owner)

[lachancesare]

[You need to find the locat>on of leaking. You do NOT need a skimmer box!!!
Try putting pump with filter at bottom of pond. If you need to lengthen hose, it sounds like you have some. May need a connector fittingly it.
String algae happens (with sun).I use an algae idea about once a month in season.
If you do not put fish in, you WILL have skeeters!.
Try running the pump at bottom of pond and see if you are still leaking.QUOTE="Duxwig, post: 468946, member: 17221"]
New homeowner as of last year, trying to get our pond purely operational. Complete pond newbie who is learning.

Goal: No fish planned. We have lots of natural wildlife which live around/come to the pond (ducks, deer, rabbits, frogs, garters, the birds, etc) and we're content w/ the vegetation/appearance + trickle sounds for now. We're OK using algaecide or what not.

Pond: Small entrance pond on the right, fills, runs over the flagstone into a river bed, under bridge, into the main pond, flowing back to the bottom left into the Savio compact skimmer box - uses pressure for the seal. Inside the skimmer is just an enclosed pump, no other filtration/catch. No aeration currently in the pond or UV. Other than occasional floating fall leaves/garden chopping, it is debris free and gets a ton of sun. The homeowners had a tote full of random pump gear - a small pump to drain, extra pond hosing, the filter which goes in the skimmer(pump+filter do not both fit so guessing they left it out?), other random parts I'm not sure of yet.
Pond is probably 3-4ft deep, the deepest point is probably an area of 5' x 2' on the bottom.

Issue: The main pond leaks. I'm not entirely sure the pond worked currently when we purchased the house. I have a feeling they had the pond fill for the pictures and had it on for the showing. Looking back at the realtor pics, I can see the water isn't on and flowing over the flagstone in the initial pond. It's lower than the hump which keeps the water in which suggests this has been a thing for some time.
I had the system on early in the year and it drained. My definition of drained = not enough water to go in the skimmer and keep the system cycling. Filled the main pond and left the system off - drained in 12 hours. The pond area seems to be draining as the skimmer will hold water fine. After researching, sounded as though this type of skimmer box gets rusty bolts every 10-15 years (we're at 16 now) and it's a leak spot. Took the faceplate off - screws were entirely fine but the faceplate had a hairline crack running the middle across the screw lines like someone overtightened it and maybe winter expansion caused crack. After even more crazy research, finally found/ordered a new skimmer faceplate. Replaced and the pond drained again over the course of 2-3 days which was better but still bad. (picture with chalk on the side of the skimmer measuring how fast the water was dropping over time) Drained the pond again and removed all the rocks/debris at the minimum water level to see if I had cuts in the liner and saw nothing. Minimum level is always around the bottom of the screw holes for the skimmer.
Getting annoyed as can't keep the pond filled due to draining and can't keep the pond empty due to rain so it's becoming a mosquito pond.
Found a hack to try washers on the outside of the faceplate for more even distribution of pressure/seal. It didn't work.

Newbie thoughts: Started trying to research parts of the pond and see there may not be a mandatory need for a skimmer box in all setups? Like I noted, we're pretty debris free, some amateur pump, have a net to skim, no fish. Can't say I can get partner buy in to do hundreds of dollars in repairs - she'd likely say pull it all and fill it in which I'm avoiding as I love the pond myself.

Ideas:
1. Other skimmer boxes use caulk to seal. Called our irrigation/pond guy who's busy, didn't know much of Savio, and said they generally use caulk to seal for all their normal installations. Savio says not to use caulk since it's a pressure seal system. Still try to caulk the tiny lines of the skimmer box and retry system to see if it'll seal - still seems like a temporary fix?
2. Detach the liner, prop it up into the air essentially so the skimmer hole is just sticking up in the air above the fill lines, and fill the pond up one last time to ensure the leak isnt around the rocks (removing skimmer area from equation)
3. Purchase a new skimmer box. I'd imagine the holes in the liner wouldn't be exact and I'd have to pull the liner up/back into the main pond area to get fresh unpunctured liner. Reseat the skimmer box more forward in the ground, poke new holes, making the pond smaller?
4. Realize we're not doing fish and ponder if we need a new skimmer box - is there any way to ADD onto existing liner? Thought of taking the skimmer box out completely, fleshing the area out with more liner, a little deeper. The pond tubing is in the ground from the side and I wondered since the pump is already enclosed and no debris issues, if we could just set the pump on the bottom of the now-open-and-lined-skimmer-area. I thought about building a little bridge over the area to shade it.

Any thoughts on how I fix the leak?
I would love to take out the skimmer box and go with the more liner + pump on bottom approach for my own reasons.

Algae being an entirely different subject - still water is developing green string algae it appears. Given our setup, adding some algaecide, and system actually working/cycling water - will we still be getting algae?

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[GBBUDD]

If you do not put fish in, you WILL have skeeters!.

If you have water movement you will NOT have skeeters they need stagnate or completely still waters or even a water droplet.

A skimmer is more then beneficial to a pond.

Adding chemicals to control algae is a band aid to a bigger problem string algae is not from the sun but it does help it thrive. string algae needs nutrients in the water column add enough plants and there's no string algae but there's still plenty of sun.

I'm no expert but i don't like the one very small and thin edge savio uses to seal the skimmer @RobAmy i believe uses the savio i understand the idea behind the little edge that's shown but it is requiring a razor thin edge and no error.

 

[Duxwig]

2 Updates - week or so ago I removed all the rocks round the sides to check the liner and saw no tears or pinholes. Caulked the skimmer box pressure points, screw holes, between liner/plate, around the inside of the skimmer just to see if I could seal it.....nope. Still drained.

Today was the next step to detach liner from skimmer box and remove it from the equation, pulled all the rocks and propped the liner up with 5 gallon buckets so the water should have been entirely trapped by just the liner....not sure I can say it's working.

Filled and over the course of 2 hours, water dropped about an inch from the red chalk mark. On top of this, the area behind the liner, where the buckets are, was dry prior and now has about 3" of water in it.

Thoughts?
To me, this is somewhat suggestive of the leak still being in the skimmer box area else why would it be filled w/ water/water lowering? Wouldn't think water on the other side if there was a leak would lead to water building in this area? Once the water lowers, I plan to go over it again with a fine tooth comb for tears again but I'm feeling a bit stumped.

 

[Jhn]

definitely a leak by the skimmer box area since it is wet outside the liner just not in the connection to the skimmer. Let the water keep dropping until it stops, then search right at water level/slightly above and there should be a hole/ tear somewhere In that area. A patch on epdm liner is simple enough to do if the liner Is in good shape.

 

[Duxwig]

definitely a leak by the skimmer box area since it is wet outside the liner just not in the connection to the skimmer. Let the water keep dropping until it stops, then search right at water level/slightly above and there should be a hole/ tear somewhere In that area. A patch on epdm liner is simple enough to do if the liner Is in good shape.

Thanks for the encouragement. Step by step!

 

[Lisak1]

I'm going to add another vote for having skimming action on a pond. To me, a pond with a skimmer has an extra "sparkle" to the surface. All the dust and tiny debris that lands on the pond from the air gets skimmed off, leaving a crystal clear water surface behind. Yes you can regularly skim leaves with a net, but that sparkle is what sells me.

Caveat - no skimmer box on our pond. We have a negative edge that acts as a skimmer.

 

[Duxwig]

I'm going to add another vote for having skimming action on a pond. To me, a pond with a skimmer has an extra "sparkle" to the surface. All the dust and tiny debris that lands on the pond from the air gets skimmed off, leaving a crystal clear water surface behind. Yes you can regularly skim leaves with a net, but that sparkle is what sells me.

Caveat - no skimmer box on our pond. We have a negative edge that acts as a skimmer.

I’m not against or for yet since the darn thing isn’t working lol
Every time I do refill it to test I admittedly think “darn it looks nice” - probably for similar reasons with the top water.

If the leak is on the liner I think (hope?) that’s why easier to fix and repair, rebooking it all to skimmer vs pulling skimmer out, digging hole out and lining it for the free sitting pump.
Had a good 2-3” of rain last night in a very clay soil so may be a bit to see what the news is for equilibrium levels.

New question regarding timeliness of repairs - we’re (ie wife lol) still solidly in the “no
Fish” camp. If I some how had this up and running mid-August(zone 5a) would it still be a better idea to wait until next year to start putting all the plants in or will they survive a winter if we try to intro them now to start denitrifying?

 

[brokensword]

I’m not against or for yet since the darn thing isn’t working lol
Every time I do refill it to test I admittedly think “darn it looks nice” - probably for similar reasons with the top water.

If the leak is on the liner I think (hope?) that’s why easier to fix and repair, rebooking it all to skimmer vs pulling skimmer out, digging hole out and lining it for the free sitting pump.
Had a good 2-3” of rain last night in a very clay soil so may be a bit to see what the news is for equilibrium levels.

New question regarding timeliness of repairs - we’re (ie wife lol) still solidly in the “no
Fish” camp. If I some how had this up and running mid-August(zone 5a) would it still be a better idea to wait until next year to start putting all the plants in or will they survive a winter if we try to intro them now to start denitrifying?

you can put the plants in to give next year a head start. Most plants will be slow in the beginning. Fish help so you'll have to use fertilizer on occasion. I finished my pond in August and put plants in then. Still more than a bit of growing season. Btw, the plants do not denitrify; that's a bacteria's job, hence why a bog works so well--a huge amount of surface area (pea gravel). Plants only take out the nitrates, the third element converted from the first (ammonia).

 

[Jhn]

you can put the plants in to give next year a head start. Most plants will be slow in the beginning. Fish help so you'll have to use fertilizer on occasion. I finished my pond in August and put plants in then. Still more than a bit of growing season. Btw, the plants do not denitrify; that's a bacteria's job, hence why a bog works so well--a huge amount of surface area (pea gravel). Plants only take out the nitrates, the third element converted from the first (ammonia).

Just FYI denitrification is the conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas, so while plants don’t denitrify they do serve the same purpose as the denitrifying bacteria present in anaerobic(low oxygen) conditions. (Low oxygen smilie)

 

[brokensword]

Just FYI denitrification is the conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas, so while plants don’t denitrify they do serve the same purpose as the denitrifying bacteria present in anaerobic(low oxygen) conditions. (Low oxygen smilie)

haha; love the low oxygen smile. Maybe Ian will adopt it.

I was just pointing out plants don't do the ammonia--nitrite thang. But, good to know!

 

[brokensword]

I see now my error; nitrification is what the nitrosoma bacteria and the nitrobacter bacteria are doing, not 'denitrifcation'. Right idea, wrong concept being applied. Sorry. Plants do take up the resultant nitrates, as noted earlier.

 

[Duxwig]

I see now my error; nitrification is what the nitrosoma bacteria and the nitrobacter bacteria are doing, not 'denitrifcation'. Right idea, wrong concept being applied. Sorry. Plants do take up the resultant nitrates, as noted earlier.

Some pond FB group posted about this yesterday so I “learned more” (not scholarly lol) and it sounded like ammonia -> nitrites -> nitrates and if you do a test it should be just nitrates when the system stabilizes and plants/ecosystem in balance?

 

[brokensword]

ideally, you want ammonia and nitrites to be 0. Nitrate is the end result, which isn't nearly as toxic to fish and the plants will use this nutrient. Hence why we promote 'lots and lots of plants'. So yes, you're basically correct. There may be small concentrations of ammonia and nitrite at any one time but not enough to hurt the fish. If you have a thriving bacterial colony, it should keep up with your bioload. That's why in the spring, there's some issues as the bacteria will lag nutrient levels initially.

 

[Duxwig]

Another day, another “wasted” day on downpouring rain refilling the pond. We’ve had nearly 8 inches of rain per the gauge, since Sunday. Hopefully soon it calms and can get to work!

 

[brokensword]

you know, you really messed up; think of all the free pond fillups you've wasted!!!