To Salt or not to Salt?

[crsublette]

Granted a lot has been written about osmoregulation but none of this literature makes a case that it is really effective over extended periods of time or is even really necessary.

...as far as I am aware of... there is no literature that has made the case on how salinity, that matches the fish's blood, aiding fish osmoregulation is ...ineffective... over extended periods of time or it is even really... unnecessary....

 

[crsublette]

It is important to note that salinity levels are not increased beyond the tolerance range of any particular specie.

@Meyer Jordan , BINGO!!!

... that is exactly why the below was written....

Often times in aquaculture for food fish production, they maintain a 0.8% concentration of sodium chloride in the water since this most closely matches the salinity of the fish's blood.

Obviously, Goldfish and Koi that we use in our pond's may have a lower blood salinity than many of the aquaculture food fish.


...if you leave out that bolded text, as you did in your quote of mine at post#6... then that obviously changes the entire context of the sentence...

 

[crsublette]

If it is not needed or does provide any detectable benefit for a pond's inhabitants, then why do it?

@Meyer Jordan , I absolutely agree!

 

[crsublette]

Oh, this is just awesome...

Here is a "Myth Debunker" author that assumes his readers will NEVER actually read his references.... (http://advancedaquariumconcepts.com/myths-about-goldfish-and-their-care/)

"A different study found similar results. This study found that lower salinities (6ppt and under) were not significantly stressful, but higher salinities produced significant muscle dehydration, adverse affects on growth, reduced food intake, and reduced food conversion rate. In addition to this, the study found that diurnal activity was significantly lower in all groups treated with any level of salt as opposed to the group maintained with no salt. (3) However, this study only lasted three weeks. This means that long term even the lowest salinities could possibly produce significant problems that were not produced in this very short trial period. The fact that the other indicators did become apparent in only three weeks shows how damaging constant salt use can be."

Here is what the ACTUAL study wrote.... (http://pendientedemigracion.ucm.es/info/nendopez/recursos/pdfs de pubs/2008-2004/2008-b.pdf)

"Higher salinities (8 and 10‰) produced significant muscle dehydration, significant increases in circulating cortisol, and adverse effects on growth, food intake and food conversion rate. Diurnal locomotor activity was significantly lower in all goldfish exposed to salinity compared to FW fish. In conclusion, Carassius auratus, a freshwater stenohaline fish exhibits good growth and no signs of stress in saline waters up to 6‰ salinity. These results demonstrate that using such salinities to reduce the incidence of diseases and mortality does not produce significant physiological alterations in this species."


The most blaring mistake is the "Myth Debunker" wrote "6ppt", not "6%"... that's a HUGE typo... 6% salinity is actually 60ppt ... And then the amateur commentator wrote a different conclusion than what was actually written by the study HE referenced...


Makes me wonder where else he injected his agenda into the article...


I just thought I would point this out.... Moral of the story... Don't blindly trust amateur commentators whom cite studies just cause you want to agree... .... please actually read the studies or make sure they are using direct quotes from the study (instead of poor paraphrases)... rather than simply trusting commentators...



DISCLAIMER :

I am NOT saying that 6% salinity is safe for our ponds...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

No one should trust anything that is presented on an internet forum without checking it out for themselves.
I encourage everyone to investigate anything that I may post whether I quote sources or not. Learn to learn for yourselves and all will be right with the world.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

"Higher salinities (8 and 10‰)

Actually these figures are incorrect. Considering that seawater contains about 3% salt, the figures stated in the study indicate that salinity levels of 2 to 3 times seawater were used. So should these figures be 0.8% and 1.0% or 0.08% or 0.10%? We will never know. I do know that If an author can not correctly proof an article/document before publication, I tend to doubt the legitimacy of the article/document.
More reason to follow my advice in my previous comment.

 

[crsublette]

Actually these figures are incorrect. Considering that seawater contains about 3% salt, the figures stated in the study indicate that salinity levels of 2 to 3 times seawater were used. So should these figures be 0.8% and 1.0% or 0.08% or 0.10%? We will never know. I do know that If an author can not correctly proof an article/document before publication, I tend to doubt the legitimacy of the article/document.
More reason to follow my advice in my previous comment.

Exactly, that seemed odd to me as well... and I bet you're correct... I think he is missing a decimal there in the study publication... which then... Why didn't the amateur commentator comment on this? ... or was this just too good to have an article that supported what he wrote..

...which is why I read more than one study...

Table 5 ...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi5o_uP8drNAhXi6YMKHT26B7EQFgghMAA&url=http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/download/129584/119149&usg=AFQjCNGQ_tgXe0MavTCDx_wTSNGpgrtwTg&bvm=bv.126130881,d.amc&cad=rja ...actually sounds to be more reasonable...

Optimal salinity of Goldfish being 1~3 ppt (which is 0.10~0.30%) ...

...still reading through some others...

...just wanted to say...

@Meyer Jordan , I agree!!!

 

[crsublette]

Actually these figures are incorrect. Considering that seawater contains about 3% salt, the figures stated in the study indicate that salinity levels of 2 to 3 times seawater were used. So should these figures be 0.8% and 1.0% or 0.08% or 0.10%? We will never know. I do know that If an author can not correctly proof an article/document before publication, I tend to doubt the legitimacy of the article/document.
More reason to follow my advice in my previous comment.

Exactly, that seemed odd to me as well... and I bet you're correct... I think he is missing a decimal there in the study publication... which then... Why didn't the amateur commentator comment on this? ... or was this just too good to have an article that supported what he wrote..

Quick correction on myself and you as well @Meyer Jordan ...

Note the "unit" used to expressed Salinity... it is NOT a percent (%) ... it is actually ‰ meaning ppt...

So... actually, the "Myth Debunker" and the publication meant... 6‰ = 6ppt = 0.60% salinity

...I only realized this once I was reading another study... http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ijzr.2011.68.76&org=10 ... that used... parts per thousand (‰)

... so that part of my critique of the "myth debunker" is incorrect...

 

[crsublette]

"Higher salinities (8 and 10‰)

That would be 8ppt (0.80% salinity) and 10ppt (1.00% salinity)...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

One other concern about adding salt to a pond, Koi or eco- is, as you stated earlier, most water has ,what I refer to, a background level of salinity.
Yet rarely will you find mentioned any advice to check the salinity level of a pond before adding any salt. All that is mentioned is knowing the capacity of the pond.
Assuming that a pond has Zero salinity could prove to be a disaster depending on what level of salinity the applier was seeking.
Returning to the subject of eco-ponds, the addition of salt will have a negative effect on the growth rate of all aquatic plants. In natural settings increased salinity impedes even the germination rate of seeds.

 

[crsublette]

One other concern about adding salt to a pond, Koi or eco- is, as you stated earlier, most water has ,what I refer to, a background level of salinity.
Yet rarely will you find mentioned any advice to check the salinity level of a pond before adding any salt. All that is mentioned is knowing the capacity of the pond.
Assuming that a pond has Zero salinity could prove to be a disaster depending on what level of salinity the applier was seeking.

Excellent clarification!!! That is very true...

 

[crsublette]

Returning to the subject of eco-ponds, the addition of salt will have a negative effect on the growth rate of all aquatic plants. In natural settings increased salinity impedes even the germination rate of seeds.

I am not convinced by that last sentence... otherwise... there wouldn't be much of any aquatic plant growth... anywhere...

One particular business did a series of experiments on salinity and how it impacts aquatic plants... in the below pdf.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I am not convinced by that last sentence... otherwise... there wouldn't be much of any aquatic plant growth... anywhere...

One particular business did a series of experiments on salinity and how it impacts aquatic plants... in the below pdf.

A nice general reference piece. Hardly scientific however.
If you have time for an evening of reading, dig into this-
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...CNwhC25XrJ7-OV_JZm2yjg&bvm=bv.126130881,d.cWw

 

[crsublette]

A nice general reference piece. Hardly scientific however.
If you have time for an evening of reading, dig into this-
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiGxZzZh9vNAhVDND4KHaK6ARwQFggcMAA&url=http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2577&context=etd&usg=AFQjCNEWeBPS8zPHo57P5YBgU2SUl86VAA&sig2=CNwhC25XrJ7-OV_JZm2yjg&bvm=bv.126130881,d.cWw

Quite excellent... likely will take me much more than an evening..

Any quick factoids ya can share that would be relatable to our level of understanding?

 

[crsublette]

A nice general reference piece. Hardly scientific however.

@Meyer Jordan , of course it's not scientific... but ... utilizes actual testing and observation that I think is good enough for our hobby purposes...

...the 134 page publication you referenced is definitely more scientific... good stuff... thank ya...